The Most Dominating Aircraft Ever?

[Drake Tungsten]

Do I get a cookie or something...

[TCO]

???You all are ***** fckkkkeres!!!! #EWat my shotrtss!!!!!!

[TCO]

Originally posted by joseph1944

As of yesterday Monday March 25 Mare Island is now part of Vallejo City prop. Gray Davis signed the paper work last Friday.

I was working on the 65 until April 30, 69. We had a RIF that day and my Supervisor was being broken back and so he transfer me to the 77 on Friday so he would have my place on Monday. And 17/19 days later guess what. I did not work on the 65 again until it came in for its overhaul some 4 or 5 years later.
I know how it happen but was never interview.

All those years they told us that a Carrier could not make it, however they lied. A Hornet type Carrier was tied up to Berth 12/13 for at lease 3 years and is now out in Suisun. Also there is a LPH there now. Might be the Iwo Jima.

I was one of the Shop 11 Test guys. We did the Tank Coordinator part also, closing and testing the tanks. Depending what year you were there, we make have spoken to each other.

Hey!!!

MI mud puppy nbelobs above the water. Stop sinkinmmg it. Please?!!! ANd hafve you ever closed oute the XC hard tank? Or any MBTS???

[Chris 62]

Looks like Navy has been drinking again.

I barely followed that squid talk, it sounded like he closed mare isalnd, and there were Carriers there, 65 is Enterprise, isn't it?
I forget what 77 is.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Chris 62

Keygan, did you know that the real reason the Soviets backed down?
Kennedy made a secret deal with Kruschef to remove American missles from Turkey in exchange for Cuba, under the provision that it remain secret.

Yes, indeed.

BTW, it's Keygen with "e"

[TCO]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Looks like Navy has been drinking again.

I barely followed that squid talk, it sounded like he closed mare isalnd, and there were Carriers there, 65 is Enterprise, isn't it?
I forget what 77 is.

It's insider stuff, Chris. He was a long time worker at the shipyard where both my boats (Drum and Guitarro) were constructed. I was also at that shipyard in the early 90's when Guitarro was decomissioned. 65 is short for SSN665 (Guitarro). It is famous for sinking at the pier during construction at MINSY.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by GP


It's insider stuff, Chris. He was a long time worker at the shipyard where both my boats (Drum and Guitarro) were constructed. I was also at that shipyard in the early 90's when Guitarro was decomissioned. 65 is short for SSN665 (Guitarro). It is famous for sinking at the pier during construction at MINSY.

I wish I was still at MI. Sept. 90 to July 92 Code 970 Electrical Group Training. July 92 to May 94 Shop 11 Test Supervisor on Los Angeles SSN 688. May 94 to Nov 95 Base Closure. The small group (about 10 guy) that I worked with during base closure close more building then the other two group together. We received a $500. award for it. I will try to forget how many Ballest tanks I have closed in 30 years.
Hey a little fact. The keel plaque on the SSN 677, I had to cut it away from the keel shortly after the keel laying ceremoney. I was told it may be in LB Johnson library.
Another little fact. I was the only person who did not serve on a Sub. during my Naval Service to be assigned to Code 290 Test Engineering Group Training Dept. in 1986

Sorry Chris did not mean to put anyone in the dark. Those who rode the Sub. (Boats) and those of us who built, repaired and overhaul them sometime forgets that.

[Chris 62]

No problem, I was close.

[Sikander]

A lot of interesting posts, and a dull mudfight thrown in for padding. I'm surprised that so many people chose the Zero as the most dominant aircraft without touching on it's most important advantage over Allied aircraft during it's period of dominance, which was it's range. Range was especially important in the Pacific theatre where suitable airbases were few and far between in most areas. Range allows aircraft to concentrate in greater numbers at a critical point, and it allows aircraft to disperse to exploit diverse targets as well. It allows aircaft to strike deep into enemy rear areas, and it allows aircraft to operate from bases which shorter range aircraft cannot strike while retaining the ability to attack the enemy's bases. It is a huge advantage, and one of the main reasons planes like the Zero, the P-38, P-47, P-51 etc. were so important strategically.

Another important thing to note which has been mentioned already tangentially is that this thread supports an idea that is at best an exageration and at worst misleading, namely the idea that a particular airframe can in and of itself dominate. It is important to note that airframes do not fight each other, air forces fight each other, and airframes are only a part of that. Doctrine, logistics, strategy, pilot quality, numbers etc. can make up for fairly large qualitative disadvantages in airframes.

This is why the U.S. Air Force is so good, because it excels in many areas. It's airframes are not necessarily the best in every aspect across the board, but they are amongst the best in almost every area, there are a lot of them, their crews are very well-trained, the aircraft are well-maintained, their tactical and strategic doctrines are sound, and the organization has combat experience at every level of command. This leads to success.

The Japanese in WWII started with a good fighter (the Zero) which had superlative range, and of course superlative pilot quality. However this plane was designed for a tactical doctrine which was already outmoded at the beginning of the war (dogfighting, ie maneuver stressed over speed, hardiness and performance at altitude). Though the Allies were a bit slow on the uptake, Japanese success goaded them into adapting to the situation by adjusting their tactics to their own strengths and to Japanese weaknesses just as Japanese success led them to become somewhat complacent.

This process was aided by the fact that the European theatre was already pointing out what worked well and what didn't, and the rather sanguine attitude of the Japanese in regards to the safety of their pilots meant that often the first mistake was a pilot's last, while the Allied doctrine of spending a good deal more effort protecting and rescuing pilots meant that the qualitative advantage of the Japanese was fairly short-lived. By the time the Japanese realized that there was a problem (or more correctly a number of them) it was too late. The Allies were training masses of pilots, and retraining the pilots that they already had to use improved tactics. By the time newer airframes were introduced the weight of greater Allied numbers, improved pilot skills, improved tactics, radar, theatre-wide air doctrine etc. was already to the point where the Japanese stood very little chance of recovering the initiative or closing the gap.

Ironically, this led a lot of people to overstate the degree to which the mid-war airframes (like the F4U and F6F) were improvements over their predecessors. Though the improved range of these planes was important, none of them had the range of the Zero. Their improvements in powerplant, firepower, performance at altitude, speed etc. were good, but the truly large advances in quality wouldn't come until the late phases of the war with planes like the P-47 and P-51 which were dominant not only in the aggregate but in almost every category. The Japanese lost the air war at the highest level, and were defeated in detail every step down the line until they couldn't even stand up in a fight where they were able to align most of the factors to their own advantage.

[joseph1944]

This must be on the front page.
The F-15 is still the best because of its record over the last 20 years. No other plane in history has performed as well.

[TCO]

Chris...I can't beleive you understood anything. It's not just sub geek talk...it's drunken sub geek talk. Maybe at heart you are a drunken sub geek?

[Chris 62]

My old man was a 25 year Navy man, I grew up on stations all over the globe.

[joseph1944]

Just reading through.

[Keygen]

Sikander,

That was a exellent post and very informative

Joseph,

Altough I believe that F-15 was the best fighter for the past 20 years it has not been fully tested on the battle field.
Even in the Gulf War its use was not as extensive as F-16's or F-18's and it was reasonable since it is a very expencive aircraft and couldn't be risked to get shooted down.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Keygen
Sikander,

That was a exellent post and very informative

Joseph,

Altough I believe that F-15 was the best fighter for the past 20 years it has not been fully tested on the battle field.
Even in the Gulf War its use was not as extensive as F-16's or F-18's and it was reasonable since it is a very expencive aircraft and couldn't be risked to get shooted down.

Most of the kills were made by the F-15. One of my books show every single Kill made by the American. I will look for it.