The Most Dominating Aircraft Ever?

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Serb

Let's see, Soviet Union felt at December 12 of 1991, I guess that he have two weeks then.

Maybe he did the interview on the December 13
Better ask him

Originally posted by Serb

The same CIA done and still doing, that's why intellegences are need for. The thing that KGB worked better makes only a honor to our intellegence. However some people think that we steal everything from West, while those people deny that the West steal from us too. This is silly as I see it.

I bet they did but mostly to study them and develop appropriate defences or offences against them. Yes, I do not believe that you stole everything and to be honest I have nevered heard anywhere that the Soviets stole everything. Besides I find no harm steeling a technology, using it in your designs and envolve it further more. The Japanese used to steel technology regarding electronics from the Americans and Europeans back to 50s and 60s and end up making better products than them and leading the technology on electronics on many fields.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Keygen
I might not be an expert on aircrafts but I used to read a lot about military weaponry in the past. I have read some articles on the issue and as far as I know the American aircrafts were better than the Soviet\Russian's.

US/Western planes had (still have) better electronics while USSR/Russian planes had (still have) better aerodynamics. No Western warplane can perform the "Super Cobra" maneuver." Russians also have some kickarse missiles such as the AA-11 (R-73) Archer So it is very difficult to say that which side is better.

Originally posted by Keygen
Regarding Soviets steeling technology from the West it is a well known story. It is not propaganda, it is a fact. Soviets did stolen lot of Western technology.

That's true, USSR did at least try to steal a lot of Western technology. However, the US was also trying to steal Soviet technology too. The most famous incident surrounding the defection of a MiG-25 pilot. He flew one of those babies to Japan. The US swarmed all over it and took it literally apart over USSR objections. After several months the US military shipped the plane back. In crates.

[faded glory]

The MiG-25 is awesome plane. Small and cheap. Fast....Its true we picked that baby apart. We learned alot. And incorporated it to some of are systems. But the Soviets stole way more. B-29, Nukes, Patriot missile system, Buran, All sorts of things.

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

US/Western planes had (still have) better electronics while USSR/Russian planes had (still have) better aerodynamics. No Western warplane can perform the "Super Cobra" maneuver." Russians also have some kickarse missiles such as the AA-11 (R-73) Archer So it is very difficult to say that which side is better.

I think on 70s and 80s Western aircafts were better on aerodynamics as well.

Now if we talk on late 80s and 90s then I will agree with you.
Sukhoy's aircrafts prototyped in the early 90s might have been of the same level or even better than the Western aircrafts. However with Eurofighter and F-22 and the awful Russian economy Russina aircrafts possibly will not have a chance to compete as equals.

[Arrian]

Each side went to great lengths to spy on one another. A good example is the Glomar Explorer expedition. The CIA, in cooperation with H. Hughes, built a huge ship called the Glomar Explorer, with a massive claw attached to it, and sent it out into the Pacific, allegedly to mine the Sea floor. What they were really after was a 1950s Soviet missle submarine that had sunk... and the CIA knew where it was because one of our subs heard it go down. They actually did recover part of the sub, but lost most of it when the claw broke about 1/3 of the way up (the sub was a couple of miles down, IIRC). They held a military burial service for a few Soviet seamen whose bodies they recovered. No info on the wreckage... whether or not they got anything useful. This is hardly top secret, since I saw it on the History Channel.

I wonder how many billions of dollars that cost - so we could get our hands on a Soviet nuclear sub. Clearly, if the KGB knew the whereabouts of a missing US sub, and thought they could recover it, they would have tried too. Such was the nature of the Cold War. They stole from us, we stole from them.

But none of this really has anything to do with the issue of the most dominating aircraft ever, does it?

-Arrian

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Serb
There is nothing strange in this. I've type my post when I'm on my job mostly and often from different computers, sometimes there is no 'Word' on those computers to put red lines below uncorrect words, in other cases I type my post in 'Word' then edit all mistakes in it and only after that copy it in answer's window.

I'm sure.

So, you are continuing to think that East Germany, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Poland, Hungary etc. were the Soviet republics?
I should remind you why all this were started by you. You've said that I do know nothing about history because I've said that SU felt in 1991. You've pumped in your chest and screamed that I am an idiot, because everyone knows that SU felt in 1989. Now, I'm saying that it is you are who shows the ignorance in history, because the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact are absolutely different things. The Soviet Union was the country while Warsaw
Pact was the military alliance.

The Soviets were an Empire built on dehumanizing and slavery.
They fell in 89, the break=up of the bastardization known as the Soviet Union was in 91 for seperate Republics forced into it by military means, in other words, your playing semantics, I'm not.
Soviets were finished in 89, that's what I said, that's what I meant.

Buy new glasses for yourself. Where did you get that I'm from Serbia. Do you know the difference between Serbia and Siberia?

Big who cares for where your from, they are equally useless.

As for my nickname, it was created for Counter-Strike battles long time ago; it is a combination of first 3 letters from my real name (Sergei) and the first letter (B) of my family name. I don't see any reasons to change my nick because of you.

I wouldn't care if you did, however, your wacky flag waving for Serbian Migs led to the logical conclusion that you are from Serbia, but your attitude has Soviet written all over it.

Yes, I love my country and my country is great country. So what?

Russia is a sink hole that has long been a blot on human freedom, but hey, that's only my opinion.

Call me a boy again and I'll (huy s nim s Mingapulco) retaliate to you at the same manner "Old guy". I'm almost out of patience, my self-control far from Ming's. I've tried to be chill, but you continue to insult me, does it again and I'll answer to you with the same.

I call you what you act like.
You tried to turn a discussion about airpower into a Russian love fest.
Sorry, for all of Russia's many aviation accomplishments, they don't have the best aircraft now, nor have they ever.
This was proved time and agin in operation.
You can waste your time denying it if you like, but it changes nothing.

Funny, when I translate our conversation to my buddies everyone laugh about your claims.

Are they not all like you?

And you still do not understand why I did this, yet another proof that you refuse to think logicaly.

I always think logically, and never comment on what I don't know about.
I wish we could say the same for others.

Which one Russian fighter? Do you deny that all modern fighters have familiar design because the shape of a fighter dictates by aerodynamic laws?

The designs of a fighter are dictated by it's designer, and in the case of Soviet designs, they bare a striking resemblance to US designs of the 70s and 80s.

Saddam don't by anything since long time. The last contract on sum of 1.5 billion $ was signed few weeks ago between China's government and Sukhoy corporation. You think the China is poor country?

What are the odds the US would allow China to buy US air designs?

I've already started it many post ago. The type was Il-2.

This alone invalidates much of what you say.
The Stumovik was designed and used for ground attack, not strategic operations.
This aircrft is a Two seat design that was phased out of production in 1944, not even finishing WWII!
36,163 examples of this plane in various marks were produced, not a single one of them made a strategic bombing attack, ever. I don't know why you have it in your head they did, but they did not.
The intial production version carried 400kg of bombs (882 pds), a very light load even for a ground attack aircraft.
It did not have long range, less then 500 miles round trip.

http://www.ophetweb.nl/ww2w/ww2htmls/ilyuil2.html

It was the most produced aircraft yes, but not the most dominating, but it would rate in the top ten in WWII, I never said otherwise, you are the one insisting it's strategic, not I.

The topic of this thread is - The most dominating aircraft, I've gave a quote from Janes, just notice, not quote from our experts, but a qoute from yours (western) experts who said that Il-2 was the most produced aircraft in history.

Numbers does not equate to domination, that is patently obvious.

First, it was in August of 1941 our bombers flight 1000 km in one way, dropped bombs on Berlin and then flight another 1000Km to return on base, USA was not even in war then.

You made a very common laymen's mistake, the IL-2 Sturovik didn't attack Berlin, the IL-4 did!

http://avia.russian.ee/air/russia/il-4.html

Yet another example of how your comments are flawed young man, and why it's hard to take you seriuosly.

Second, Georing promised that not single bomb will felt on capital of third Reich, and Germans NOT didn't know they had been bombed! They didn't know WHO bombed them, because Germans believed that their Air forces will shoot down any Brit's bomber if Brits will try to bomb Berlin. Germans were absolutely shocked after those bombings, because they thought that it is impossible for Russians to cover such distance and bomb their capital. They refused to belief in this and Brits papers even posted a rejection after this and said that it was not a Brits bombers who bombed Berlin.

Goering's comments had already been proven false by the RAF in 1940, germany he said would never be bombed, not just Berlin.

Third, you are still don't give any examples of familiar operations done by USAF. I'll gave two examples how Russian bombers cover 1000Km, make bombing and return to base. Without examples your claims that American bombers were better and have greater operational range are empty words.

Your just making a fool of yourself, but since you persist:
Ploesti, round trip, 2,400 miles, or 3862.43 Kilometers , or 1431 KM each way, against the heaviestly defended target in the Riech.
Want more?

http://orbat.com/site/data/historical/usa/operationtidalwave.html

How about the US B-29, a plane that could and did carry 2,000pds or 907.185 Kilograms of bombs for 4,000! miles, or 6437.38 Kilometers

http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/japanbom.htm

I didn't even include strikes from England to Poland carried out by US warplanes, so now you begin to understand why we are incredulous at your outragious claims about Russia's aitpower, so far you have committed three glaring historical errors.

little land???
Look at map.

Little, as in politcally insignificant.

And you'll pay for this someday.
Come and get us suckers, will teach you how to fight.
*Raise one of my fingers out of my fist*

We don't need to.
There is nothing wrong with being Russian, being a Soviet is to be of questionable moral fibre in reguards to human rights.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by paiktis22
USA is a slum and everyone will piss on its grave when it will go down.

Have a good day.

That is a bit harse...?

It's bullsh1t and you know better.
If you can't see the difference between freedom and Soviet Communism, and a lot of dumb-ass people can't your beyound hope Paiktis.

Your pictures made you look pretty damn ilithios, and I am quite angry with you.

You know the boy is wrong, massaging him and insulting me isn't the way to go, you know damn well the cry of freedom that went up when those bastard's grip on eastern and central europe was broken.

You want to make an enemy of me, so be it.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by faded glory
The MiG-25 is awesome plane. Small and cheap. Fast....Its true we picked that baby apart. We learned alot. And incorporated it to some of are systems. But the Soviets stole way more. B-29, Nukes, Patriot missile system, Buran, All sorts of things.

You got it wrong Steverino, it's a big heavy mother, and expensive too.



The one Belenko flew to Japan in 75 that UR mentions was carefully examined, the results wre good engines and 1950s era avionics.
The plane had serious flaws in heat disapation and strutural integrity.
Fast is was, good it wasn't.
The Soviets only used it for high alltitude intercept of recon and possible bombers, it isn't suited to take on enemy interceptors/fighters

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Chris 62
It's bullsh1t and you know better.
If you can't see the difference between freedom and Soviet Communism, and a lot of dumb-ass people can't your beyound hope Paiktis.

Your pictures made you look pretty damn ilithios, and I am quite angry with you.

You know the boy is wrong, massaging him and insulting me isn't the way to go, you know damn well the cry of freedom that went up when those bastard's grip on eastern and central europe was broken.

You want to make an enemy of me, so be it.

I don't.
What I ask is a bit of respect for countries like Russia or Serbia. I can tell the difference between freedom and non freedom and I have done so over and over again. I have my ideas but I respect everyone (except when trolling but then it is obvious). I've never attacked anyone who didn't attack first.

I agree that I shouldn't have posted the photographs but I was pretty angry too. I didn't see any post where Serb insulted the US.
And since Serb is a kid as you say(actually just 2 years younger than me) why be so hard to him?

Despite your attacks, he didn't insult in kind, he was actually more mature about the whole thing.

I've never contradicted you before and you KNOW I respect you but my conscience does not permit me to stand idle when insults are thrown against people and nations so freely. If it was anyone else but you or a small handful of others I would have teared him to shreds (or at least I would have tried).
All I ask is for respect especially when it is 1 against 100.

[faded glory]

WEll the MiG-23/25/27 were alot smaller than there western counterparts. They had to have been cheaper. Otherwise the SU wouldnt have built as many as they did.

[TCO]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
It was found in about 3 seconds of google search.

The Iranian a/c might have been in a war zone, but it was over international waters on a pre-approved flight plan. It was obviously an accident, but so was the SK airline (which at least ventured into Roosian airspace, BTW).

The USN forces were at fault for the shootdown. A mitigating factor was that they were engaged in battle with Iranian gunboats at the time.

[faded glory]

ok back on TOPIC!!!!!


The best flying plane in the world right now is the F-15. Unless somebody is going to bring up the MiG arguement again...there really is no match to the F-15 Eagle. Currently.


But looking back. Ide say the British Spitfire gets the vote.

[faded glory]

Originally posted by GP


The USN forces were at fault for the shootdown. A mitigating factor was that they were engaged in battle with Iranian gunboats at the time.

Actually. To be Exact. 3 Iranian missile boats.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by paiktis22
I didn't see any post where Serb insulted the US.

I'm sure.

Despite your attacks, he didn't insult in kind, he was actually more mature about the whole thing.

"Maybe you interviewed Cadets"
"When were you ever iN Russia"
Calling me a liar is an insult, and I wasn't saying anything about Russia, but about Soviets.
Big difference.
Not only that, by saying I can't tell a cadet from an active duty officer is akin to calling me a moron.
Little boy got what he gave, same as always.

I've never contradicted you before and you KNOW I respect you but my conscience does not permit me to stand idle when insults are thrown against people and nations so freely. If it was anyone else but you or a small handful of others I would have teared him to shreds (or at least I would have tried).
All I ask is for respect especially when it is 1 against 100.

When he's factual, I'll be the first to supposrt him, for instance, I posted about the Mig 15's superiority and the Red Air force's dominence in 43-45 on the Eastern front, but don't dare try to tell me that Russian designs have been smoking western ones for the last 50 years, it simply isn't so.

Russia acchieved many fantastic advances, like first sattelite, first Venus probe, first man in space, many fine acchievments.
It only cheapens them by this boy making up ones, especialy when it comes on the blood of my countrymen.
I will not have it.

And for the record, the date we conducted interviews was december of 1991, and most of the pilots were quite forthright, as are all military personel when dealing with other military personel, no matter what uniform they wear.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by faded glory
WEll the MiG-23/25/27 were alot smaller than there western counterparts. They had to have been cheaper. Otherwise the SU wouldnt have built as many as they did.

The 25 was never built in numbers or allowed into block invantories, strategic interception was only for the SU.

The 23/27 is basically the same plane, the 27 is optimised for ground attack.

The Soviets used the 21 as front line equipment into the early 80s, it was light, cheap, highly manuverable and fast.

It was replaced by the varible geomitry 23/27 series, as well as Sukhoi designs then coming into service till the excellent Mig-29 shows.
These planes helped destroy the SU's economy, because they tried to build complicated equipment in large numbers, a ruinis policy.