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Newseek: Pentagon Considers "Salvador Option" in Iraq

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  • #76
    I'm not making any arguments here. Rather, I'm seeking the facts about how things work in this world.
    One can make an argument in the form of a question, or questions.

    That you do not reject the idea of training death squads on its face is in itself a position, Dan. That is, if this tactic acheives a certain goal, it is worthy of consideration.

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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    • #77
      Even if they are slightly skewed, 82% and 80% are above even Britain's (our chums, our buddies) numbers.
      I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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      • #78
        One can make an argument in the form of a question, or questions.
        You can, but I'm not.
        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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        • #79
          Barely. And note that ES and Nicaragua have no stake in the Iraq War, so one would expect a drop (i.e. by almost half) that resembles France/Germany rather than the UK. Favorability of ~50% is not spectacular, particularly given the large number of people born after the death squads, and that we hold them by the balls in that we control their access to good-paying jobs and thus remittances.
          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
          -Bokonon

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          • #80
            Favorability of ~50% is not spectacular
            Basically, you're pulling this number out of your ass?
            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

            Comment

            • #81
              Originally posted by DanS


              There are more than 100,000 Iraqis living in the United States. I don't know how much money they send back.
              Well, the 2000 census recorded 37,714 individual claiming Iraqi ancestry specifically, with 205,822 just claming Arab, so some could be there. Can you point to the source of your numbers? Mine, the US census:

              http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFPeople?_sse=on


              According to the census 372,487 people of Guatemalan ancestry live in the US, compared to a total population of 14,280,596 according to the CIA.

              CIA.gov 404
              http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gt.html
              If you don't like reality, change it! me
              "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
              "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
              "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

              Comment

              • #82
                The average of the France/Germany drop is 40%. 60% of 82% and 80% are 49.2% and 48%, respectively.
                "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                -Bokonon

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                • #83
                  Here...

                  Migration Information Source
                  http://www.migrationinformation.org/USfocus/display.cfm?id=113
                  The Migration Information Source provides fresh thought, authoritative data, and global analysis of international migration and refugee trends. For more about the Source, click here.


                  I plussed up the numbers marginally for post-census immigration.
                  I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                  Comment

                  • #84
                    You can't extrapolate from France and Germany. Comparatively speaking, we weren't very popular in France and Germany in the first place and the governments of these two countries were the ringleaders in the Security Council opposed to US action in Iraq.

                    And as stated, I don't have numbers for ES/Nicaragua, but rather have them for Honduras and Guatemala. Negroponte was our man in Honduras from 1981 through 1985.

                    Edited to change Guatemala to Honduras for Negroponte.
                    Last edited by DanS; January 11, 2005, 13:14.
                    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                    Comment

                    • #85
                      Cooincidentally I'm sure, Honduras pulled out of the "Coalition of the Willing" right after Negroponte was selected as Ambassador to Iraq.
                      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                      -Bokonon

                      Comment

                      • #86
                        No coincidence at all. Spain pulled out, leaving the Latin American nations in the coalition without needed support. Honduras had no support system of its own.
                        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                        Comment

                        • #87
                          You forgot Poland (seen as a replacement for Spain).
                          Last edited by Ramo; January 11, 2005, 14:15.
                          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                          -Bokonon

                          Comment

                          • #88
                            Originally posted by DanS
                            No coincidence at all. Spain pulled out, leaving the Latin American nations in the coalition without needed support. Honduras had no support system of its own.
                            And the US didn't offer it?

                            That Negroponte
                            If you don't like reality, change it! me
                            "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                            "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                            "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                            Comment

                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Arrian


                              How can you even consider it? What the hell is wrong with you?

                              -Arrian
                              EXACTLY.

                              The very fact that Dan still needs time to go over this shows an opinion already and is scary to me.

                              Death squads are generally not a good thing.
                              We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Arrian
                                It seems to me that the argument he is making - even if true (I'm dubious) - is ultimately useless if one cares at all for morality/ethics. It's an "ends justify the means" argument, pure and simple: hey, we did this in El Salvador, and they don't hate us (supposedly), so it worked!

                                Does it matter whether or not what we did was wrong?

                                To me it does. There are some things, IMO, you just don't do. Organizing "death squads" (or, if you want to soften it - training foreign security forces in the methods of collective punishment) is such a thing.

                                -Arrian
                                We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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