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Newseek: Pentagon Considers "Salvador Option" in Iraq

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  • #31
    Arrian: Short of death squads, do you have any ideas about a reasonably just solution to this problem of the minority not settling for their proper share of power?


    Focus on local elections, rather than national elections, rebuild a nonsectarian civil society, through supporting, i.e. labor unions, etc. In the national election, I'd look at a few possibilities: give the Sunnis a default 10-15% of Parliament if they boycott the election as expected (to keep them from feeling more marginalized) or have people vote for individual candidates, rather than top-down party lists (so the election would be more about local, pragmatic concerns, rather than sectarian rivalres). The bottom line is that democracy is a process, not an event, and that pinning all our hopes on a single national election, coming far too late, after we've alienated the Sunni population through that idiocy in Fallujah in addition to all the other incompetence we've beeen involved in for the past year and a half, ain't going to work.

    Death squads are morally despicable and not an option for a just soicety. Period. And practically, they're not going to rebuild a democratic culture, and they almost certainly would make the problem worse (see collective punishment in Fallujah).
    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
    -Bokonon

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    • #32
      To us, it is the BEAST.

      Comment


      • #33
        This is a constitutional ssembly, not your regular legislative assembly. Have to think of a way to make sure minority rights are supported in the Constitution coming up.
        If you don't like reality, change it! me
        "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
        "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
        "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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        • #34
          It remains unclear, however, whether this would be a policy of assassination or so-called "snatch" operations, in which the targets are sent to secret facilities for interrogation. The current thinking is that while U.S. Special Forces would lead operations in, say, Syria, activities inside Iraq itself would be carried out by Iraqi paramilitaries, officials tell NEWSWEEK.


          Excuse me? Why is deporting innocents to be tortured in Syrian prisons Maher Arar-style being presented as the sunny alternative?

          Maher Arar Timeline

          October 10, 2002

          Early in the morning on October 10 Arar is taken downstairs to a basement. The guard opens the door and Arar sees for the first time the cell he will live in for the following ten months and ten days.

          Arar calls the cell a “grave.” It is three feet wide, six feet deep and seven feet high. It has a metal door, with a small opening which does not let in light because of a piece of metal on the
          outside for sliding things into the cell. There is a one by two foot opening in the ceiling with iron bars. This opening is below another ceiling and lets in just a tiny shaft of light. Cats urinate through the ceiling traps of these cells, often onto the prisoners. Rats wander there too.

          There is no light source in the cell. The only things in the cell are two blankets, two plastic bowls and two bottles. Arar later uses two small empty boxes – one as a toilet when he is not allowed to the washroom, and one for prayer water.

          October 11 to 16, 2002

          Early the next morning Arar is taken upstairs for intense interrogation. He is beaten on his palms, wrists, lower back and hips with a shredded black electrical cable which is about two inches in diameter. He is threatened with the metal chair, electric shocks, and with the tire, into which prisoners are stuffed, immobilized and beaten.

          The next day Arar is interrogated and beaten on and off for eighteen hours. Arar begs them to stop. He is asked if he received military training in Afghanistan, and he falsely confesses and says yes. This is the first time Arar is ever questioned about Afghanistan. They ask at which camp, and provide him with a list, and he picks one of the camps listed.

          Arar urinated on himself twice during the interrogation.

          Throughout this period of intense interrogation Arar was not taken back to his cell, but to a waiting room where he could hear other prisoners being tortured and screaming. One time, he heard them repeatedly slam a man’s head on a desk really hard.

          October 17 to 22, 2002

          During the second week of the interrogation, Arar is forced into a car tire so he is immobilized. This was used to scare him, but he is not beaten while in the tire, as with other prisoners.

          The intensity of the beating and interrogation subsides after October 17. Interrogators start using a new tactic, taking Arar into a room blindfolded so he can hear people talking about him, saying, ”He knows lots of people who are terrorists,” “We will get their numbers,” “He is a liar,” “He has been out of the country.” They occasionally slap him on the face.

          ...


          Americans.
          Blog | Civ2 Scenario League | leo.petr at gmail.com

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          • #35
            Originally posted by DanS
            Oddly, doing this stuff doesn't seem to hurt our image. The US has extremely high favorability ratings in El Salvador.


            Maybe the people don't trust in the anonymity of the polls. You can't be erased for thoughtcrime if you don't tell strangers you are committing thoughtcrime.

            (Unless you are ruled by Stalin, in which case you can be randomly imprisoned along with thousands of your fellows with thoughtcrime as the cover story in order to discourage others from committing thoughtcrime.)
            Blog | Civ2 Scenario League | leo.petr at gmail.com

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            • #36
              Compliments of Mother Jones.com:

              January 10, 2005
              3:24 PM
              More on death squads

              Over at Whiskey Bar, Billmon has a short round-up of links and quotes on what the "El Salvador" option really means. Here's one such passage, from Raymond Bonner's groundbreaking account, Weakness and Deceit:

              One [Salvadoran] death squad member, when asked about the types of tortures used, replied: "Uh, well, the same things you did in Vietnam. We learned from you. We learned from you the means, like blowtorches in the armpits, shots in the balls. But for the "toughest ones" — that is, those who resist these other tortures — "we have to pop their eyes out with a spoon. You have to film it to believe it, but boy, they sure sing."

              - Bradford Plumer

              ...

              There are more lovely snippets at the second link. In addition to a : puke : smiley, we need a : jaw drop : smiley.
              The cake is NOT a lie. It's so delicious and moist.

              The Weighted Companion Cube is cheating on you, that slut.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by DanS


                Oddly, doing this stuff doesn't seem to hurt our image. The US has extremely high favorability ratings in El Salvador.
                It is neither the 1980s nor are we talking about El Salvador.

                I am really losing faith in my country. We seem to be sinking lower and lower, and people just don't give a damn.

                First sanctioned torture and now sanctioned death sqauds. It's one thing to take out rebels but another thing to take out sympathizers.


                And DanS seems to march merrily along as it nothing is wrong with it.

                I'm not sure if the idea or the reaction to it scares me more.


                I am really disgusted and ashamed. Every thing this great nation is SUPPOSED to stand for, we are turning our backs on.

                **** THIS
                We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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                • #38
                  anything to protect OUR freedom from terrorsists. 51% of the country scares me.
                  "I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
                  'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Ted Striker

                    **** THIS
                    Ready to go red, Ted?
                    I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                    I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Agathon
                      I predict that if it happens, every conservative journalist in America will praise America's "mercy" and "compassion".

                      And they wonder why educated people think they are idiots.
                      In all fairness, Newsweek isn't exactly left-wing. It's moderate to slightly to the right.

                      So hopefully there are a few (more than a few) conservatives who think this is a bad idea.

                      And just how certain are we that this isn't just another "idea tossed out", like the nuclear war scenarios?
                      I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                      I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Theben
                        Ready to go red, Ted?


                        False Dilemma



                        Definition:

                        A limited number of options (usually two) is given, while in reality there are more options. A false dilemma is an illegitimate use of the "or" operator.

                        Putting issues or opinions into "black or white" terms is a common instance of this fallacy.

                        Examples:
                        Either you're for me or against me.
                        America: love it or leave it.
                        Either support Meech Lake or Quebec will separate.
                        Every person is either wholly good or wholly evil.

                        Proof:

                        Identify the options given and show (with an example) that there is an additional option.


                        Commies and conservatives don't want you to know this, but you don't have to occupy an extreme position on the spectrum to dislike the other extreme. Be a centrist like me.
                        Blog | Civ2 Scenario League | leo.petr at gmail.com

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                        • #42
                          St. Leo gets it
                          We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            And DanS seems to march merrily along as it nothing is wrong with it.
                            Hey, you must think you have a talent in mindreading or something. I'm one of the only posters who hasn't expressed an opinion in this thread.

                            "Death Squads" are outrageously immoral. How can you even think of approving of them?
                            This thread's all full of people who think they are mindreaders!
                            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                            • #44
                              Didn't we do this in Iran with the Shah? We set him up and trained his "police" and the result was the Iranian revolution.

                              Didn't we do this in Nicaragua when we propped up the Somozas and trained their "police" and the result was the Sandinistas.

                              Cuba, Chile, and Vietnam, oh no

                              No, what we learned is why Saddam was so brutal - thats what it takes to "govern" a country full of people who dont like each other.

                              Partition the damn country! Iraq was a fabrication by the British who wanted antagonistic populations living within the same borders to facilitate the extraction of oil while everyone is fighting.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Spiffor
                                Gotta love how the supporters of the guerilla will are pondered as potential targets as well. This is the best way to have Iraq enter a bloody and very long civil war, under the guidance of people as wise and democratic as Allawi (loyalists) and some Saddam's nostalgic (rebels)
                                I think it's already there.
                                (\__/)
                                (='.'=)
                                (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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