Ukraine

[Dinner]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
For example, remember what happened in Georgia exactly one year ago. Be sure, whatever happens in Iraq, the election will be declared democratic.

AHHHH! So we're back to pretending the US caused the Georgian people to rise up against a dictator who rigged elections? At least you ruskies are consistant. When asked for evidence about Ukraine you say "evil US did it in Georgia" and when asked for proof about claims in Georgia "evil US did it in Ukraine".

[lord of the mark]

Do we have any UKRAINIANS here?

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


What "position" towards Ukraine. Did one western country endorse a candidate as Putin did?

No, they did not. But it's plain obvious whom they're supporting.

The only thing that theyre united in is expressing concern about the POSSIBILITY of vote fraud. And the reason theyre united is because there have been many such reports from UKRAINIANS and from international observers.

Sorry, but . They are united because their candidate lost!! Do you seriously think that if Yuschenko won they would be concerned with any possible fraud?

[DanS]

Re #1, that's certainly a serious charge. Re #2, that's an idiotic charge. He was bringing in sophisticated energy capital and expertise, something that Russia desparately needs right now. Economic nationalism is ridiculous. Besides, all the Russian government had to do was block the sale, if it was worried about the national security implications.

Don't think that you are on a higher moral ground than Russia here.

You see, that's where it's all bull****. The US has had regular elections for 400 years. It's not that our **** doesn't stink (there is fraud), but we know a rigged election when we see one.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
It is interesting to note that, in spite of many contraditions surfaced recently between western countries, the position of the West towards Ukraine remains remarkably consolidated.

In so far that everyone agrees tht rigging elections is bad, yes.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Of course the ban on sale of companies to foreigners was one of the reasons the billionaires made their money in the first place, since it ruled out the competition for buying them and made sure theyd be sold cheap. You will notice that in Poland Hungary, Czecho, etc privatization did NOT create billionaires.

These countries don't have natural resourses. As for Khodorkovsky, selling a company that provides a considerable amount of revenue for the federal budget is simply a matter of national security to Russia.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


No, they did not. But it's plain obvious whom they're supporting.

No Im afraid its not obvious that theyre supporting ANYONE. It is obvious that the Putin backed candidate CLAIMED that Yuschenko was backed by the West, but i see no evidence of any such support by any Western state.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


No, they did not. But it's plain obvious whom they're supporting.



Sorry, but . They are united because their candidate lost!! Do you seriously think that if Yuschenko won they would be concerned with any possible fraud?

If there was evidence of fraud on the part of Yuschenko, yes. Again, see Tunisia.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Oerdin


AHHHH! So we're back to pretending the US caused the Georgian people to rise up against a dictator who rigged elections? At least you ruskies are consistant. When asked for evidence about Ukraine you say "evil US did it in Georgia" and when asked for proof about claims in Georgia "evil US did it in Ukraine".

It's a fact that the US took a considerable part in preparing that 'rose' revolution in Georgia, as you earlier did in Serbia. Is it that the very thought that the US can do something like that offends you? I don't even condemn the US for that. I understand. I simply state that a big game is going on, and that it is not just to blame the Russkies for all the evils of the game you too participate in.

[DanS]

The difference is that we seek nothing more than accurate vote counts.

We participated in Serbia and Georgia and wouldn't be surprised to see that we participated in the Ukraine. The only thing that I'm sad about is that we didn't participate more in Belorussia.

[Az]

Oh, please, DanS.

[lord of the mark]

"State television: journalists fight back

A month ago, just a few days before the first round of voting in the presidential elections, 42 journalists on 5 central TV channels issued a signed, public statement attacking the censorship under which they are expected to work. The number of signatures has now reached 330 – all of them broadcast journalists.

The statement obliges them to refuse to work on reports that do not meet stringent standards of professional journalism.

Since then there has been a battle to force the management of the TV channels to agree with their journalists ethic standards for news reporting and analysis.

On Channel 5, the only nation-wide channel to make a serious attempt at balanced reporting, a week-long hunger-strike by staff in late October succeeded in beating off attempts to close down the channel.


Newspapers: a pattern of attacks


Tuesday’s issue of Silski Visti (November 16) was blocked at the printers and was not distributed for several days. The entire print run of this major national daily remained at the printers. The issue carried a large interview with Mr Yushchenko – the number had been produced with Mr Yushchenko’s backing and with an extra large print run. A week before the paper had produced a special issue on Yanukovych.


Saturday’s issue of Den (November 20) didn’t come out – the first time in eight years that the national daily had not reached its readers. It’s editorial was critical of Mr Yanukovych, and the paper reportedly declined to print the text of a report by a parliamentary commission investigating accusations that Mr Yushchenko had been poisoned (the report said no evidence had yet been found to confirm he had been poisoned). Over the weekend the paper’s o! wners, linked to the government, tried to replace the editor, Oleg Ivantsov, but journalists refused to accept his replacement, Valery Stepanyuk, who previously worked as a state censor on TV channels Inter and 1+1.



In the city of

Sumi

in northern
Ukraine

, on Thursday (November 18) unknown persons seized some 500 copies of the weekly newspaper Panorama from sellers at the city’s central market, saying that the paper was “opposed to the government” and contained pro-opposition leaflets. The staff reject these accusations, pointing out that if a paper is not actively pro-Yanukovich it is automatically accused of being pro-Yushchenko. The editor in chief of ! the newspaper says he harbours “serious fears that the new issue won’t be allowed to get out.” (On the day of the first round of elections (October 31), a tear gas canister exploded in the building housing the Panorama offices and the offices of radio station Nochnoi Dozor, with which the newspaper collaborates closely. Several staff were injured by the gas.)


In Kharkov, eastern Ukraine, a week before the first round of the elections police attempted to close down the printers where weekly newspaper Obiektiv-NO is printed. When the printers refused, police were stationed at the gates and stopped and checked every car going in. Newspapers then started appearing that looked similar to other well-known newspapers, but were full of propaganda; also “opposition” leaflets appeared with extremist demands, such as calls for civil war. (Before the first round of the elections, police searched the second home of the editor of Obiektiv-NO, Natalia Stativko. Despite all her efforts, she has still received no adequate explanation for the search.)



In Nikolaev, in southern

Ukraine

, the weekly paper Yuzhnaya Pravda was printed on Thursday (November 18) but was not distributed. Journalists on the paper interpret the problems as a repeat of the scenario observed at Silski Visti, and see it as just one of “a mass of such instances in
Ukraine"

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DanS
You see, that's where it's all bull****. The US has had regular elections for 400 years. It's not that our **** doesn't stink (there is fraud), but we know a rigged election when we see one.

Some of us do, anyway.

[DanS]

I don't think we have anything at all to fear from reasonably accurate vote counts.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DanS
I don't think we have anything at all to fear from reasonably accurate vote counts.

Maybe not this time around.