Ukraine

[The Vagabond]

In fact, if it was not for the expansion of the evil alliances, Russia would not be so against Yuschenko. At least, Putin would not have openly endorsed Yanukovich as he did.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
My understanding is that the challenger is popular in Kiev and other Western cities. If so, the fact the the government is centered in Kiev, the demonstrations will be disproportionately large because of geography. Just keep this in mind when looking at the demonstrations in Kiev, which are huge.

I don't know enough to support one side or the others. Most likely I will support neither.

I support a peaceful solution, whatever happens. No one needs another Yugoslavia.

BTW, since when is Kiev in "Western" Ukraine? I thought it was near the geographic center of the country.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
In fact, if it was not for the expansion of the evil alliances, Russia would not be so against Yuschenko. At least, Putin would not have openly endorsed Yanukovich as he did.

well d'oh.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


It was widely accepted that Chavezs recent win was democratic, among others hostile to the "West". And it is noted that elections in Algeria and Tunisia and elsewhere are NOT democratic, despite pro-western wins.

Good for you. I would just like to note that in those cases you (the West) had nothing to lose or to gain by declaring it otherwise. So why not to be truthful once in a while?

It does happen that in parts of eastern europe and the ex-soviet sphere fraudulent elections tend to be the specialty of anti-western forces. I would suggest there are good historical reasons for that.

It does happen. But you would be mistaken if you think that pro-western forces are always much better than that.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



I support a peaceful solution, whatever happens. No one needs another Yugoslavia.

BTW, since when is Kiev in "Western" Ukraine? I thought it was near the geographic center of the country.

Geographically, it is in the center. But politically, in this election, it is with Western Ukraine.

[chequita guevara]

If you use one line, instead of two, you just divide Ukraine into Eastern and Western halves.

[Az]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


No, Huntington connect civilization and religion, in particular identify an "orthodox" civilization, and including Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and Croats with "Western" civilization, while identifiying Serbs with Orthodox civilization. He makes an exception for Latin America, IIUC. So its not me, its Sam. Which is one of my problems with him, religion and language are CROSS CUTTING cultural factors.

connects, yes, but doesn't make them the same. In fact, in his discussion of torn countries, you'll see many parameters, WRT the ukraine, as well.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

except there were other Russian billionaires, just as corrupt, who Putin did NOT go after.

Do you remember what Clinton answered to the question why you were going after Yugoslavia while many other similar regimes remained unpunished? He said something like that: "Well, you know, we just cannot go after everyone, but this doesn't mean we shouldn't do what is right in this particular case. Blah, blah."

He only went after the one who supported the political opposition.

Supported the opposition? He was just buying as many deputies as possible to lobby his personal interests in the Duma. And he was buying both pro-western liberals and communists, he didn't care whom. It's amazing how the glorious western media can mislead the public.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


Good for you. I would just like to note that in those cases you (the West) had nothing to lose or to gain by declaring it otherwise. So why not to be truthful once in a while?

I would suggest that the US has MUCH more to gain by declaring Chavez illegitimate, and the secularists who won in Algeria and Tunisia legitimate, than we do in the outcome in Ukraine. Despite what you may have been told, the US is not particularly interested in Ukraine, and the US admin is not without considerable sympathy for Vladimir Putin.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


Do you remember what Clinton answered to the question why you were going after Yugoslavia while many other similar regimes remained unpunished? He said something like that: "Well, you know, we just cannot go after everyone, but this doesn't mean we shouldn't do what is right in this particular case. Blah, blah."

You DO understand the difference between foreign policy, and equal protection of law, dont you? Nations deal with each other strategically, and MUST be inconsistent in their application of principles. A democratic nation applies the law to ITS OWN citizens equally, and without regard to their political positions.

To put it shortly - your own citizens are NOT equivalent to foreign countries.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond



Supported the opposition? He was just buying as many deputies as possible to lobby his personal interests in the Duma. And he was buying both pro-western liberals and communists, he didn't care whom. It's amazing how the glorious western media can mislead the public.

He would have been wiser to buy Putin, as the other billionaires did.

[Pekka]

Well they said in the news that the situation there in Ukraine is tensing up by the hour and this night will show how it goes. Meaning if it still stays cool, it might as well turn out peacefully and nothing to see here move along. But if fireworks rise up to the sky, it might turn into heated situation. Not civil war, but heated, meaning riots and stuff.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Saras
Blini
Tolstoy
Russian meddling in neighbours politics

You are so concerned about Russian meddling that you don't even notice the meddling of other countries. You just expelled President Paksas, and you didn't even notice that you merely served as puppets in someone's skillful hands. Shame, shame, shame.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Hypocrisy of the West has no limits. Whenever their candidate wins, the election is declared the triumph of democracy. Whenever their candidate loses, it is very undemocratic. They welcome civil unrest and various kinds of 'rose' revolutions. I hope the present Ukranian government has the guts to hold out.

Care to post any evidence to back up your BAM?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


You are so concerned about Russian meddling that you don't even notice the meddling of other countries. You just expelled President Paksas, and you didn't even notice that you merely served as puppets in someone's skillful hands. Shame, shame, shame.

Of course every former soviet republic that doesnt follow guidance from Moscow is a puppet of the West, interesting how that works. At least he didnt call you a whore, like Serb calls the Ukrainians who support Yuschenko.


heres an interesting tidbit

"OTTAWA (Reuters) - Canada summoned the Ukrainian ambassador on Tuesday to demand that Kiev immediately probe "allegations of serious fraud" in the second round of a disputed presidential election race over the weekend.


"I am concerned by reports ... which indicate a variety of serious violations, including illegal voting practices, violence and patterns of intimidation against voters and election observers," Foreign Minister Pierre Pettigrew said in a statement.


A spokesman said the ambassador had been called in to speak to Peter Harder, the ministry's top bureaucrat. Pettigrew is abroad.


There are more than 1 million people of ethnic Ukrainian origin in Canada -- around 3 percent of the overall population -- and Ottawa pays close attention to events in the former Soviet republic"


Its those evil NeoCon Canadians at work, eh?