Ukraine

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
except there were other Russian billionaires, just as corrupt, who Putin did NOT go after.

Sorta like the US only goes after countries that "support terrorism" only when they aren't US lackeys.

[Gangerolf]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4035755.stm

I'm true Ukraine head - Yushchenko

Ukrainian opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko has declared himself president in front of his supporters as crowds rallied outside parliament.

Mr Yushchenko, who says the election was rigged against him, read the oath of office during a stormy session of parliament attended by opposition MPs.

As a mark of protest he put his hand on a Bible and stood at a window to address about 200,000 people outside.

Official results showed a narrow win for Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych.

Exit polls had indicated a clear win for Mr Yushchenko, who has refused to accept the official result.

The move has no legitimacy, but in a symbolic oath of office, Mr Yushchenko swore to "defend the rights and liberties of Ukrainian citizens".

Earlier, he told parliament: "Ukraine is on the verge of civil conflict."

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Sorta like the US only goes after countries that "support terrorism" only when they aren't US lackeys.

great powers in their foreign affairs are not required to treat all alike, democracies in their internal affairs are, if they are to be considered democracies.

[Az]

It's time to split that baby up. All hail Huntington.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Azazel
It's time to split that baby up. All hail Huntington.

Looks like the split wont exactly follow Sams lines though. By his reasoning only the majority Catholic western area should go. Yesterday Kiev, in the center, and mainly Orthodox, refused to recognize the election and supported Yuschenko. Even assuming the official returns, Yuschenko got lots of votes from Orthodox, and if his supporters claim about vote fraud are to be believed, he may have won close to a majority of Orthodox votes (BTW, Az, aint it a pleasure to be discussing Orthodox votes and not to be thinking about Shas? ) Looks like the split was MORE along linguistic lines (Ukrainian vs Russians and Russified Ukrainians) than along religious/"civilizational" lines.

LOTM, who never misses an opportunity to nitpick Huntington.

[Last Conformist]

This is starting to get interesting

[Nubclear]

Yes, lets fight a civil war instead

[chequita guevara]

My understanding is that the challenger is popular in Kiev and other Western cities. If so, the fact the the government is centered in Kiev, the demonstrations will be disproportionately large because of geography. Just keep this in mind when looking at the demonstrations in Kiev, which are huge.

I don't know enough to support one side or the others. Most likely I will support neither.

[The Vagabond]

Hypocrisy of the West has no limits. Whenever their candidate wins, the election is declared the triumph of democracy. Whenever their candidate loses, it is very undemocratic. They welcome civil unrest and various kinds of 'rose' revolutions. I hope the present Ukranian government has the guts to hold out.

[Az]

LOTM, who never misses an opportunity to nitpick Huntington.

It's funny that you connect civilization and religion, and distance from language, just in order to have some ammo against Huntington. Your "hug hug hug" act is really cute, though.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Hypocrisy of the West has no limits.

Your just realising this?

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar


Your just realising this?

No, I realized this long ago. This is just an additional painful confirmation.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
My understanding is that the challenger is popular in Kiev and other Western cities. If so, the fact the the government is centered in Kiev, the demonstrations will be disproportionately large because of geography. Just keep this in mind when looking at the demonstrations in Kiev, which are huge.

Very true. In Kiev Yuschenko got about 80%, while Yanukovich only about 17%.

The people of Kiev do not represent the people of Ukraine as a whole.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Azazel

LOTM, who never misses an opportunity to nitpick Huntington.

It's funny that you connect civilization and religion, and distance from language, just in order to have some ammo against Huntington. Your "hug hug hug" act is really cute, though.

No, Huntington connect civilization and religion, in particular identify an "orthodox" civilization, and including Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and Croats with "Western" civilization, while identifiying Serbs with Orthodox civilization. He makes an exception for Latin America, IIUC. So its not me, its Sam. Which is one of my problems with him, religion and language are CROSS CUTTING cultural factors.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Hypocrisy of the West has no limits. Whenever their candidate wins, the election is declared the triumph of democracy. Whenever their candidate loses, it is very undemocratic. They welcome civil unrest and various kinds of 'rose' revolutions. I hope the present Ukranian government has the guts to hold out.

It was widely accepted that Chavezs recent win was democratic, among others hostile to the "West". And it is noted that elections in Algeria and Tunisia and elsewhere are NOT democratic, despite pro-western wins. It does happen that in parts of eastern europe and the ex-soviet sphere fraudulent elections tend to be the specialty of anti-western forces. I would suggest there are good historical reasons for that.