Ukraine

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
He would have been wiser to buy Putin, as the other billionaires did.

Putin is unbuyable.

The other billionaires simply obeyed the informal rules of goodwill set by Putin. As for Khodorkovsky, he was trying to use his wealth to the detriment of vital interests of Russia. OK, we can forgive that he stole the people's property in those years of turmoil and wipe the slate clean. After all, it was inevitable and even necessary. But we cannot forgive this.

[Az]

. OK, we can forgive that he stole the people's property in those years of turmoil and wipe the slate clean.

speak for yourself.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


Putin is unbuyable.

The other billionaires simply obeyed the informal rules of goodwill set by Putin. As for Khodorkovsky, he was trying to use his wealth to the detriment of vital interests of Russia. OK, we can forgive that he stole the people's property in those years of turmoil and wipe the slate clean. After all, it was inevitable and even necessary. But we cannot forgive this.

what, that virtually everyone in Western Ukraine thinks the election was fraudulent? Why is it up to RUSSIA to forgive or not forgive that? Ukraine is not a part of Russia - yet.

Im reserving judgement on whether the elections are fraudulent or not - the only people OUTSIDE of Ukraine who seem to be certain, are Russians. Interesting.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I would suggest that the US has MUCH more to gain by declaring Chavez illegitimate, and the secularists who won in Algeria and Tunisia legitimate, than we do in the outcome in Ukraine.

Perhaps, the victory of Chaves was so overwhelming that it was bad-looking to declare him illegit. In Ukraine, on the other hand, the election was very close.

Despite what you may have been told, the US is not particularly interested in Ukraine, and the US admin is not without considerable sympathy for Vladimir Putin.

There is no contradition at all between sympathy for Putin and the anti-Putin interests in Ukraine. This is just life. And you are very mistaken that the US has no particular interest in Ukraine. The West is simply obsessed with keeping Ukraine out of Russia-led alliances (be it economic or political).

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Azazel

. OK, we can forgive that he stole the people's property in those years of turmoil and wipe the slate clean.

speak for yourself.

Then let me say it in a diferent way. We have to forgive much of that, like it or not. Let it go, provided that they act in the interest of the country.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

quote:
Originally posted by The Vagabond


Putin is unbuyable.

The other billionaires simply obeyed the informal rules of goodwill set by Putin. As for Khodorkovsky, he was trying to use his wealth to the detriment of vital interests of Russia. OK, we can forgive that he stole the people's property in those years of turmoil and wipe the slate clean. After all, it was inevitable and even necessary. But we cannot forgive this.

what, that virtually everyone in Western Ukraine thinks the election was fraudulent? Why is it up to RUSSIA to forgive or not forgive that? Ukraine is not a part of Russia - yet.

Im reserving judgement on whether the elections are fraudulent or not - the only people OUTSIDE of Ukraine who seem to be certain, are Russians. Interesting.

I was talking about the oligarchs here, not Ukraine!!

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Care to post any evidence to back up your BAM?

For example, remember what happened in Georgia exactly one year ago. Be sure, whatever happens in Iraq, the election will be declared democratic.

[Last Conformist]

And roughly a zillion people will protest they were not ...

[DanS]

As for Khodorkovsky, he was trying to use his wealth to the detriment of vital interests of Russia.

What is the real Bill of Particulars against Khodorkovsky? That he got into politics and criticized the czar? I have no love for Khodokovsky, but I think that the czar's intolerance of criticism is a throwback to darker times and makes no sense besides.

Regarding the Ukraine, I think we need an accurate vote. I don't trust Russia's democratic instincts with regard to accurate votes. The schenanigans in the first vote in Georgia leads me to believe that the trust would be misplaced.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Of course every former soviet republic that doesnt follow guidance from Moscow is a puppet of the West, interesting how that works.

This is true to some extent, just as well as the reverse statement is.

heres an interesting tidbit

"OTTAWA (Reuters) - Canada summoned the Ukrainian ambassador on Tuesday to demand that Kiev immediately probe "allegations of serious fraud" in the second round of a disputed presidential election race over the weekend.


"I am concerned by reports ... which indicate a variety of serious violations, including illegal voting practices, violence and patterns of intimidation against voters and election observers," Foreign Minister Pierre Pettigrew said in a statement.


A spokesman said the ambassador had been called in to speak to Peter Harder, the ministry's top bureaucrat. Pettigrew is abroad.


There are more than 1 million people of ethnic Ukrainian origin in Canada -- around 3 percent of the overall population -- and Ottawa pays close attention to events in the former Soviet republic"


Its those evil NeoCon Canadians at work, eh?

LOL. The Canadian Ukrainians most certainly think like the Ukrainians from Western Ukraine. Their opinion is not representable of Ukraine as a whole. The Canadian government, as a good one, simply expresses the opinion of a considerable part of the Canadian population.

It is interesting to note that, in spite of many contraditions surfaced recently between western countries, the position of the West towards Ukraine remains remarkably consolidated.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


Perhaps, the victory of Chaves was so overwhelming that it was bad-looking to declare him illegit. In Ukraine, on the other hand, the election was very close.



There is no contradition at all between sympathy for Putin and the anti-Putin interests in Ukraine. This is just life. And you are very mistaken that the US has no particular interest in Ukraine. The West is simply obsessed with keeping Ukraine out of Russia-led alliances (be it economic or political).

I see no sense of the obsession here in Washington. And yes, sympathy for Putin tends here to go along with a tendency to look the other way at Russian actions in the "near abroad". People sympathetic to Putin may still be SYMPATHETIC to the western Ukrainians, but they dont really care about the Ukraine. Or Georgia. Or Moldova.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


It is interesting to note that, in spite of many contraditions surfaced recently between western countries, the position of the West towards Ukraine remains remarkably consolidated.

What "position" towards Ukraine. Did one western country endorse a candidate as Putin did? The only thing that theyre united in is expressing concern about the POSSIBILITY of vote fraud. And the reason theyre united is because there have been many such reports from UKRAINIANS and from international observers.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by DanS

What is the real Bill of Particulars against Khodorkovsky? That he got into politics and criticized the czar? I have no love for Khodokovsky, but I think that the czar's intolerance of criticism is a throwback to darker times and makes no sense besides.

I wouldn't say that Putin is very tolerable of criticism. But what you say is very much an oversimplification. Khodorkovsky got what he got basically for two reasons:

1) He was behaving too shamelessly on the political arena. He was buying deputies, no matter pro-western liberals or communists, to lobby his interests in the Duma. He was even openly bragging of that.

2) He was acting against vital interests of Russia. In particular, he was trying to sell his oil company to Americans, which was deemed unacceptable.

Regarding the Ukraine, I think we need an accurate vote. I don't trust Russia's democratic instincts with regard to accurate votes. The schenanigans in the first vote in Georgia leads me to believe that the trust would be misplaced.

The sad truth is that no-one's democratric instincts can be trusted in this case of Ukraine, nor Russia's, nor the West's. There is so much at stake for both sides. Don't think that you are on a higher moral ground than Russia here.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


I wouldn't say that Putin is very tolerable of criticism. But what you say is very much an oversimplification. Khodorkovsky got what he got basically for two reasons:

1) He was behaving too shamelessly on the political arena. He was buying deputies, no matter pro-western liberals or communists, to lobby his interests in the Duma. He was even openly bragging of that.

IE he was giving money to opposition parties. First rule in politics, defund your opposition.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


I wouldn't say that Putin is very tolerable of criticism. But what you say is very much an oversimplification. Khodorkovsky got what he got basically for two reasons:

1) He was behaving too shamelessly on the political arena. He was buying deputies, no matter pro-western liberals or communists, to lobby his interests in the Duma. He was even openly bragging of that.

2) He was acting against vital interests of Russia. In particular, he was trying to sell his oil company to Americans, which was deemed unacceptable.

Of course the ban on sale of companies to foreigners was one of the reasons the billionaires made their money in the first place, since it ruled out the competition for buying them and made sure theyd be sold cheap. You will notice that in Poland Hungary, Czecho, etc privatization did NOT create billionaires.