Ukraine

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I think it's about time for the Russians amongst us to accept that their days of glory are gone, and that they have the sphere of influence of a small gnat. If you can't even control within your own borders you shouldn't bother trying to project your power outside it.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Serb
Eastern regions contribute to 80% of Ukranian GDP.

You know, that doesn't mean anything in a democracy, where the rule is "one person, one vote". No matter how wealthy the people are.

[Serb]

Oh it's you again, Mr. "I belive in British shamans who can make diagnosis after a short look on the picture of their patient".
What the f*ck are you talking about?
Before the election, Putin made the official statement that Russia will work with ANY president elected by Ukranian people. Looks like Russia is the only rememing democracy in the world who agitate for legal solution of crisis through courts, not through "the voice of angry mob". The west is just pushing the country to the civil war, by to imposing its will - "accept our candidate or face the consequences) to Ukranian electorate. You think you can establish such double standards all around the world?
Who the f*ck do you think are you guys? New Hitlers?
Let them decide their own fate (they already did it actually) and accept their choice.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Spiffor

You know, that doesn't mean anything in a democracy, where the rule is "one person, one vote". No matter how wealthy the people are.

Sure, but the other main point of democracy is to elect the guy who get support of majority of voters. The minority SHOULD accept the will of majority.
Yanukovich get 3% more than his rival, so in a real democracy minory should have accepted their defeat. But in Ukraine, they didn't, they think that their sponsors can help them to take the power in an illegal way, to help them to owerthrow the legaly elected president, elected by majority of Ukranian population (who are, by chance produce 80% of national GDP and feed this western minority. The western regions that supported Yushenko are donor-regions, subsidized by eastern regions).
There is no way in hell that majority of Ukranians (who once againe FEED this minority, by producing 80% of their GDP) will accept the candidate of MINORITY (and poor minority, I should remind) as new president.
So, if Yushenko will take the power somehow (and the only way to do this for him is an illegal way, And he is already on this road) there will be bloodbath, a civil war and as probaly the split of the country).

[Atahualpa]

Before the election, Putin made the official statement that Russia will work with ANY president elected by Ukranian people. Looks like Russia is the only rememing democracy in the world who agitate for legal solution of crisis through courts, not through "the voice of angry mob"

1. There is no angry mob in the Ukraine, so far the demonstrations were quite peacefully as I heard.
2. Russia is the ****tiest democracy in the world and Putin has proven more than once how "democratic" he handles political opposition
3. Putin can talk as much as he wants, the way he acts, shows how he is like

Let them decide their own fate (they already did it actually) and accept their choice.

All the EU is asking is a recount. If that seems to you that we don't let them decide their own fate you must be blinded, because quite obviously all we want is to make sure that exactly they really decide their own fate and Lord God Putin should stay where he belongs: in Russia.
If he would have interest in a democratic Ukraine, then he would fully support EU's and US's claims for a recount, because it is more than obvious that there is something fishy. Or ofc he is trying to hide something and knows more than we do...

If it turns out that Yanukovich was elected rightfully he shall be president, but if it proves that there was election fraud then Yushenko should be declared president and those who committed the fraud be punished.

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Serb

Sure, but the other main point of democracy is to elect the guy who get support of majority of voters. The minority SHOULD accept the will of majority.
Yanukovich get 3% more than his rival, so in real democracy minory should have accept their defeat. But in Ukraine, they didn't, they think that their sponsors can help them to take the power in illegal way, to help them to owerthrow the legaly elected president, elected by majority of Ukranian population (who are, by chance produce 80% of national GDP and feed this western minority. The western regions that supported Yushenko are donor-regions, subsidized by eastern regions).
There is no way in hell that majority of Ukranians (who once againe FEED this minority, bu producing 80% of their GDP) will accept the candidate of MINORITY (and poor minority, I should remind) as new president.
So, if Yushenko will take the power somehow (and the only way to do this for him is an illegal way, And he is already on this road) there will be bloodbath, a civil war.

This is all based on the assumption that there was no election fraud. Currently this assumption is more than vague.
Don't try to build strong arguments on vague assumptions.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Serb
Sure, but the other main point of democracy is to elect the guy who get support of majority of voters. The minority SHOULD accept the will of majority.

I completely agree

There is no way in hell that majority of Ukranians (who once againe FEED this minority, bu producing 80% of their GDP) will accept the candidate of MINORITY (and poor minority, I should remind) as new president.

Indeed.

So, if Yushenko will take the power somehow (and the only way to do this for him is an illegal way, And he is already on this road) there will be bloodbath, a civil war.

This is what I fear most. This is why I hope somebody will emerge than can unite both parts of the country behind him.

If anything, this crisis shows there is a very deep identity problem in Ukraine, as it is severely divided (far more so than the US between its 'Red' and 'Blue' States). To me, it proves the Ukrainian State is either not viable, and should be separated between an independent western part, and a Russian eastern part... or they should strive to find an agreement that give large autonomy to each half, like in Belgium.

It seems that a "winner takes all" political system is something Ukraine definitely can't afford.

[lightblue]

Originally posted by Serb
Oh it's you again, Mr. "I belive in British shamans who can make diagnosis after a short look on the picture of their patient".
What the f*ck are you talking about?
Before the election, Putin made the official statement that Russia will work with ANY president elected by Ukranian people. Looks like Russia is the only rememing democracy in the world who agitate for legal solution of crisis through courts, not through "the voice of angry mob". The west is just pushing the country to the civil war, by to imposing its will - "accept our candidate or face the consequences) to Ukranian electorate. You think you can establish such double standards all around the world?
Who the f*ck do you think are you guys? New Hitlers?
Let them decide their own fate (they already did it actually) and accept their choice.

Hook, line, sinker

The OCSE says the election were truly flawed (and Russia happens to be a member of the OCSE afaik), as were the elections in Russia last year.

Russia is about as far removed from a proper democracy as Saddam era Iraq was. Repression of freedom of press, intimidation of candidates and voters etc etc. Putin is basically another authoritarian nutjob who so far has managed to hide it under a very thin veneer of democracy, but then (as you Godwin'd this thread already) so did Hitler when he started off. There's serious concerns in the EU about the direction Russia is taking. We were hoping after 1991 that you'd take a similar path has Poland has taken, but instead Russia's need for a authoritarian leader has shown through again, just as it has happened through out your history.

And yes this might jsut be a hyperbolic troll, but the general basis of it is laid in facts

[Serb]

Give me a couple of minutes. My English dropped pretty much thanks to a couple of litters of beer. We have a party here deicated to send-off of one of our employee to specnaz. How the hell you can understand me if make so many typos?

[lightblue]

Oh and btw, i didn't say i believed the eminent toxicologist in the Nature article (about the most important peer reviewed scientific journal in the world), I jsut reported because people were wondering what it could've been, and it makes more sesse than a plate of bad sushi or whatever it was you said it was.

[Saras]

Na zdorovje!

[Serb]

Specnaz forever

My blya vsem otdelom nahuyarilis kak poslednie sobaki. A ved' vse eshe tolko nachinaetsya. Zhena menya ub'et. Uzhe zvonila. Zvala na koncert. Kakoi na her koncert, parniya v specnaz provojaem.

[Combat Ingrid]

Originally posted by Serb
As I've said he already was examinated several times, first by Ukranian medics, then by Austrian medics, then by medical experts of the office of the public presecutor of Ukraine, then by medical experts of special commision of Ukranian parliament and ALL those experts find NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The last examination of Yushenko (carried out by experts of special commission of Ukranian parliament) included tests on presence of traces of over than 200 various poisons.
Yushenko is a liar and the British doctor who make diagnosis after looking on the photo is a charlatan.

It is not possible to make toxicology diagnosis without any tests. This British doc is bulsh!ter and liar, no more, no less.

Is it published what exactly they were looking for? If he indeed was poisoned, it doesn't matter if they look for 100.000 substances, if they don't look for the specific substance that was involved, they will of course find nothing. Being a scientist, I can't accept vague statements such as "we didn't find anything", I want raw data

But I agree about the British doctor. Sure, you can suspect dioxin poisoning from looking at the picture, but it's bad science to jump into conclusions like that

[Saras]

Originally posted by Serb
Specnaz forever

My blya vsem otdelom nahuyarilis kak poslednie sobaki. A ved' vse eshe tolko nachinaetsya. Zhena menya ub'et. Uzhe zvonila. Zvala na koncert. Kakoi na her koncert, parniya v specnaz provojaem.

Dai te Bog legkogo pohmelja posle dlinnogo stola

[Serb]

Originally posted by Atahualpa


1. There is no angry mob in the Ukraine, so far the demonstrations were quite peacefully as I heard.

Update your info. One of the leaders of those peacefull demonstrators called upon takeover of state's buildings to paralize the state and to blockade a roads to paralize the economy. And those peacefull demonstrators already captured few state's buildings and blockaded few roads. That's classified as crime in accordance with Ukranian law (article 314).
So they are not as peacefull as you think (according to Ukranian law they are criminals).
Besides, Yushenko proclaimed himself in parliament as the new president, BEFORE the Central Electoral Commision annoced official results of the election.

2. Russia is the ****tiest democracy in the world and Putin has proven more than once how "democratic" he handles political opposition

So far, Russia is the only country which agitated for resolution of the crisis in accordance with Ukranian consitution and law. Other countries just make threats - "accept Yushenko or dare the consequences".
And if you need an example of really ****ty democracies, look at Afghanistan or Kosovo. There your advanced democratic societies find nothing wrong (since their candidate won).

3. Putin can talk as much as he wants, the way he acts, shows how he is like

Any evidences?

All the EU is asking is a recount.

Fine. I agitate for the same. If the opposition has evidences of unfair election, they should bring them in a court.
But, I have different opinion about EU and US position. I believe they want to make their candidate a president no matter how. THEY NEED HIM VICTOR.

If that seems to you that we don't let them decide their own fate you must be blinded, because quite obviously all we want is to make sure that exactly they really decide their own fate and Lord God Putin should stay where he belongs: in Russia.

And Lord God George II and all other Lord Gods of Europe should stay where they belong- in USA and EU.

If he would have interest in a democratic Ukraine, then he would fully support EU's and US's claims for a recount, because it is more than obvious that there is something fishy.

There is no anything obvious that something is fishy. You seem to do not understand.
The main role of observers is to OBSERVE and to COLLECT EVIDENCES for the court if there were any irregularities, NOT TO MAKE CONCLUSSIONS ABOUT LEGITIMACY or ILLEGITIMACY of ELECTION.
Only the court can make such conclusions, not US, not EU, not Russia, not any of thier observers, only GODDAMN COURT.
So why the hell the Russian president should support EU and US in their illegal claims about unfair election, considering that neither US nor EU can't make such statements (only Ukranian High Court can) and considering that observers from CIS (several hundreds of observers) said that there were some irregularities (from both sides), but they were minor and couldn't change the outcome?

Or ofc he is trying to hide something and knows more than we do...

Sure he does. As president he has access to information that we do not have access.

If it turns out that Yanukovich was elected rightfully he shall be president, but if it proves that there was election fraud then Yushenko should be declared president and those who committed the fraud be punished.

1) The victory of Yanukovich is not acceptable for US and EU. Yushenko is their bet, their investment and their whore.
2) You lack the knowledge about Ukranian law, in case if election turns out to be fraud, there will be NEW ELECTION and BOTH Yushenko and Yanukovich COULDN'T participate in this new election. That's their law.