Ukraine

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Azazel
[/q]
That's the point, that there was interference on both sides. That holier than thou attitude by both sides, is SOOOO cold war. Rally the troops, chief, the Russkies are coming.

Er, excuse me. My first response when i heard about this was too bad there may be fraud, i hope they work it out peacefully. After a week and a half of absolutely paranoid cold war style rants coming from Russians, from representatives of the Russian state like Luzhkov, to 'poly posters, Im ready to shoot back verbally.

I dont particularly think we should bring Ukraine into NATO - thats costly, and i dont want to extend a security guarantee to Ukraines borders. Theres no loss to the US of Ukraine not going into the EU - hell, who here wants a larger, stronger, EU? Im not sure which candidate, if any will reduce corruption, and why should I care about corruption in this far away country. But dammit, to be called imperialists and coup plotters for merely stating the facts as we see them, for funding an exit poll, for trying to help monitor the elections to make sure they ARE fair, is infuriating.

[Gangerolf]

The Polish and Lithuanian presidents went to Kiev today to mediate. Surely they count as Western leaders in this day and age.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
The Polish and Lithuanian presidents went to Kiev today to mediate. Surely they count as Western leaders in this day and age.

Luzhkov didnt go to mediate. Nor did Putin.

[Gangerolf]

Well, are they going to mediate or to "mediate" as teh filthy Yankee lapdogs they are?

[Ned]

If the Ukraine joins the EU, how will the EU defend itself against the Russians? If Russian divisions cross the border to repatriate the Ukraine -- er, assist the loyalist forces in their effort to resist Western imperialism, what would the EU do? Run to the United Nations? Hah. Russia has a veto.

What would they do?

[Saras]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
The Polish and Lithuanian presidents went to Kiev today to mediate.

No no, we want our empire back . And burn Moscow, (C) Lithuania, take 5

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
The Polish and Lithuanian presidents went to Kiev today to mediate. Surely they count as Western leaders in this day and age.

They went there AFTER the elections and due to a crisis (Kwasniewski has in fact very good relationships with Kuczma), not during the elections.

[Serb]

Just my two cents,

Both Polish and Lithuanian presidents sucks.

Thank you.

[Arrian]

Why not two rubles, Serb?

-Arrian

[Serb]

On the other hand, these two guys,

[Serb]

Originally posted by Arrian


Why not two rubles, Serb?

-Arrian

I'm too greedy to waste our precious currency for such a crap.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
Ukraine's parliament has passed a no-confidence motion in Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych as a crisis over the disputed presidential poll continues


In parliament, 229 MPs - three more than required - voted in favour of sacking Mr Yanukovych as prime minister and creating an interim government.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4057213.stm

Big deal, Kuchma will veto this decision, no doubt.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Serb

I'm too greedy to waste our precious currency for such a crap.

Dirty capitalist!

-Arrian

[Serb]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
Here's an interesting read

You meant a nice example of bullsh!t read, did you?

Ukraine crisis exposes Putin's plans

By Peter Biles
BBC world affairs correspondent, Moscow

The Kremlin is maintaining a wall of silence on Ukraine, apart from saying the political crisis must be resolved without foreign pressure.

And it is a such a notorious statements, right?
Putin siad that current Ukranian crisis should be solved in accordance with Ukrainan constitution and law. He is a monster, a f*cking dictator, , since the west offers to solve this crisis in accordance with a power of an angry mob.

However, Russia is clearly watching the events with intense interest.

Of course we do. Ukraine is our NEIGHBOUR and Ukranians are our broithers. We are tied by religion, culture and history. It's not surprising we are watching the events there.

What happens in Ukraine matters a great deal to Moscow, not least because this could result in another foreign policy blunder for President Vladimir Putin.

BS.
It's a great deal for Moscow, becasue in case of US-backed candidate victory, it means that USA could further owerthrow neighbour governments. This is not acceptable for Russia.
Yankees should go f*cking home.

The Russian leader visited Ukraine twice during the election campaign, in order to support the pro-Russian candidate, Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych.

1) Putin never, NEVER make any statements in favor of Yanukovich during Ukranian election campaign.
2) Europe sent hell knows how many of their emissaries to support Yushenko and gave hell knows how many millions of bucks to him.

Mr Putin was also the first foreign leader to congratulate Mr Yanukovych when he was initially declared the winner of the now disputed election.

So what? He had all rights to do so. The Central Electoral Commitee of Ukraine officialy declared him as the victor. So far (untill High Court of Ukraine will prove otherwise), Yanukovish is the legal president of Ukraine.

Russia's blatant intervention makes a mockery of President Putin's accusation that the West is meddling in Ukraine and his statement that no-one should interfere in the electoral process.

WHAT BLATANT INTERVENTION?
Putin's suggestion to solve everething in accorance with the law, in non-violent way is a BLATANT INTERVENTION?

The Kremlin's enormous investment in the Ukrainian election actually weakened Russia's standing on the world stage
- Nikolai Petrov, Carnegie Moscow Centre

WHAT ENORMOUS INVESTMENT?
Was it Russia who donatated millions of $$$ to the election fund of one of the candidates? Nope, it was US of A. So, what the f*ck he is talking about?

The Mayor of Moscow, Yuri Luzhkov, fuelled more controversy when he was welcomed at a pro-Yanukovych rally in eastern Ukraine at the weekend.

So it's not Ok when Russian mayor arrieves to Ukraine to show sympathy to Yanukovich, but it's Ok when US governor and all kinds of freaks from UE flood Ukraine to support Yushenko?

Mr Luzhkov's attendance was strongly criticised by Yulia Tymoshenko, the firebrand aide of the Ukrainian opposition leader, Viktor Yushchenko.

Just a little correction here, a whore of Mr. Yushenko, a whore of US and a person who is suspected in several crimes.
So her words worth a lot.

"Politicians in Russia should simply watch what is happening. Ukrainians can find their own decision, and do what their country needs", said Ms Tymoshenko.

I'm absolutely agree with Ms. Tymoshenko, despite she is a whore of Mr. Yushenko paid by guys from the White House, and searched out by police of several countries for her crimes- "Ukrainians can find their own decision, and do what their country needs". Let them decide their own fate, Yankees, please go home.

Post-Soviet imperialism?

Nope, just a neo-Cold-war western idiotism.

At the heart of President Putin's foreign policy is a desire to formally maintain Russia's sphere of influence in the Commonwealth of Independent States - the countries that made up most of the Soviet Union.

1) Ukraine is the member of CIS and the member of the treaty of collective defense.
2) It is in Russia's interest to maitaine Ukraine within CIS and this treaty, not to allow Ukraine join EU and NATO, since NATO is the organization hostile to CIS.
3) WHAT THE F*CK USA is doing there? Ukraine is the Russia's neighbour, not American neighbour.
4) Yankee, please, go f*cking home. Care about Mexico instead. How would you react in case if Russia backed one of the candidates in Mexican elections, gave him millions of bucks and initiated an owerthrow in case of his failure?

However, writing in The Moscow Times this week, Nikolai Petrov of the Carnegie Moscow Centre argued that Mr Putin's actions had led to a rise of anti-Russian sentiment in Ukraine and around the world.

"The Kremlin's enormous investment in the Ukrainian election not only failed to strengthen but actually weakened Russia's standing on the world stage", said Mr Petrov.

WHAT ENORMOUS INVESTMENT AGAIN?
AND HOW THE HELL RUSSIA'S SUGGESTION TO SOLVE THE CRISIS IN ACCORDANCE WITH LAW COULD WEAKEN RUSSIA'S STANDING?

Besides, who the hell is Nikolai Petrov?

"This intervention disrupted the Kremlin's ongoing attempt to integrate post-Soviet space, which even before this election, was widely viewed as neo-imperialistic."

1) WHAT INTERVENTION?
2) It's neo-cold war western idiotism.

Nevertheless, on the domestic front, Mr Putin has moved to place more power in the hands of the Kremlin since the Beslan school siege in the summer, and without much international censure.

I see, your source is very creditable.
Beslan was at Sept. 1. It's autumn, not summer. They lack the knowledge about such key events, but still can make conclusions about Russian policy. Experts, my ass.

The Russian leader is still regarded by the West as an important ally, particularly in the war on terror.

While Ukraine has made no secret of its desire for closer European integration and membership of Nato, President Putin is known to be extremely wary of an enlarged European Union on his doorstep.

Ukraine HAS NOT made a secret of its desire for closer European integration and membership of Nato, only Mr. Yushenko has made no secret of this. But Mf Yushenko is not an entire Ukraine. Majority of Ukrainans voted for his rival who wants more close realtion with Russia.

Instability

In this highly-charged atmosphere, Mr Putin has been accused by his critics of trying to split Ukraine.

BS. BS. BS.
Was it Putin who said something about the split of Ukraine?
Nope. It was parliaments of the Eastern regions of Ukraine who wanted/and still want to declare their independance from a "president" elected by western minority (in case if Yushenko will be declared as a new president).
Eastern regoins produce 80% of Ukrainan GDP. Why the hell they should accept the will of the western regoins (the minority whom they feed)?

Some in the mainly Russian-speaking east of the country are opposed to any move towards Europe, and have been demanding greater autonomy.

Of course they do, because:
1) They produce the bulk of the country's GDP
2) Thus they do not want to feed all those western spongers.
3) They perfectly realize that they have no chances on european market. Thier goods can't compete with european goods, and the only available market for them is the Russian market. Besides, Ukraine owns billions of USD to Russia for gas and Russia can, REALLY can destroy the economy of Ukraine ANY time it wishes, by turing off the gas pipe. So moving away from Russia means really bad consecuences for them (despite the country is the sh!thole lready, this will make things even worse), on the other hand, EU and US can offer them nothing, aside to rob them, can't provide no market for their goods, can't provide any benefits for them and can't provide any threat to Ukraine, except a military threat (which is highly unlikely, since it means war with all members of CIS).
4) So Ukraine is tied and intersed in closer relation with Russia WAYyyyyyyyyy more than with colser relations with EU and US. And also, Ukraine is more interested in closer realations with Russia, than Russia interested in closer relation with Ukraine.

We cannot even bring Chechnya into line.

Who are "they"? Al-Queda? CIA?
They aren't Russians obviously, since Russians control Chechnya since 2000, pretty well. At least way better than Americans "control" Iraq.

What could we hope to achieve in Ukraine, with its rebellious population of nearly 50 million?

1) In case if this "expert" didn't notice, Ukranian population is split between the two candidates. The poor western regions voted for an American whore, the rich (according to Ukrainan standards) regions voted for the guy whom they consider will bring more prosperity to them (ok, ok, you amy call him a Russian whore).
2) Ukranian population isn't a 50 million.
3) Why the hell Russia should hope to achive anything with rebellious population of Ukraine? It's the independent country. And the country we can destroy without any military strengh. If will turn-off the pipe, who will send them oil and gas for our several times lower than worldwide price, prices (which they can't pay anyway)? Uncle Sam? Eu? Don't make me laugh. We can destroy this whole country anytime we wish, first economically then politically. In case of isolation from Russia, the eastern regoins will declare independence from Ukraine and join Russia, no doubt. So US, by pushing country to a civil war playing a really bad game.

Russia, with important EU trade links in mind, won't want to widen the current rift in EU-Russian relations by aggravating Ukraine's instability.

So what?
I can say the same for EU - Russia is their important trade partner, they can't find an alternative for Russian gas&oil.

However, it would not be the first time that Moscow had encouraged separatism in the countries of the former Soviet Union, notably in Georgia and Moldova.

However, it would not be the first time that Washington had encouraged owerthrow of the governmetns of sovereign states to replace them with US-backed dictators, examples varies from Chile (and earlier) to Georgia.

So, might Russia intervene militarily in Ukraine?

Of course not, because we don't have to. Eastern regoins will be happy to join Russia in case of Yushenko's victory and new pro-western robbery of Ukraine. And actully we don't care about western regions. They may do whatever they wish (join NATO or EU if they will accept them of course), as long as they pay market prices for our gas, if they don't- f*ck them, let EU or US save their butts.

The respected Russian defence analyst, Pavel Felgenhauer

Never heard about this particular motherf*cker anyway.
His name "Fel'kin-her" sounds pretty funny in Russian. Who respects him? CIA, Bullsh!ters, Inc.?

The respected Russian defence analyst, Pavel Felgenhauer, thinks such a scenario is highly unlikely.

"Putin's Russia does not have the military power to send in the tanks and dominate foreign countries", says Mr Felgenhauer.

"We cannot even bring Chechnya into line. What could we hope to achieve in Ukraine, with its rebellious population of nearly 50 million?" [/q]
Looks like I already heard this line (see above). It must be a reminder for wise western public to let them better understand this idea. Looks like a western public need a double reiteration to understand anything.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4057605.stm

[Serb]

Originally posted by Arrian


Dirty capitalist!

-Arrian

I'm a pink as$ commie now. Howerver, even pinkasscomies can count, two cents is about four times less than two rubles.

It was a long time ago since we had a talk last time. Nice to see you