Ukraine

[Serb]

Originally posted by Saras


Dai te Bog legkogo pohmelja posle dlinnogo stola

Pret ne po-detsky. Nesmotrya na to, chto ya zloupotreblyau iskluchitelno pivom. Ostalnaya bratva hleshet vodku. Prichem hleshet po-vzroslomu. Odnin iz kamradov uzhe sebya ne kontroliruet. Mezhdu nim i drugim komradom proizhodit dialog:
- ty menya uvazhaesh?
- tebe nado domoi!
- tnet, blya, ty menya uvazhaesh?
- tebe nado domoi!
- pochemu?
- da hui ego znaet, no tebe ochen tuda nado, ty uzhe vseh tut zaebal!
- ty menya uvazhaesh?
itd.
Realnyi blin anecdot.

Prizyvnik uzhe kak poltora chasa kak se'balsya, no vesel'e tolko nachinaetsya.
Koroche tipichnyi russkii prazdnik.

[Serb]

Originally posted by muxec
I think that Yanukovich really won.

Sure he did.

Eastern Ukrainians are more Russian than Ukrainians. Crimea is Russian at all... Many cities with ethnic Ukrainians consider themselves culturally Russian. Take Odessa, Kharkow, Donetzk, Dnepropetrovsk and Krivoi Rog and you already have 6 millions population in pro-Russian area. On the other hand only few voted Yanukovich in Ivano-Frankivsk and Lviv...

True.

I hope that this will end up peacefully.

But how? Thousands supporters of Yanukovich already arrvied in Kiev. Whole city is just a big power keg. If Yushenko will not accept his defeat and will try to take the power, there will be bloodbath. And even if Yushenko could win the battle for Kiev )since he get support of majority there) he obviously will never win the battle for estern and south Ukraine. That means the split of the country on west and east.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I actually really fear there's a de-facto division of the country, with one part recognizing Yanukovich as a leader, and the other regonizing Yuschenko. I hope the Ukrainians will come to their senses to avoid such a division before the military kicks in, but I'm very pessimistic.

Let's hope that a charismatic leader, that can be seen as legitimate by both parts of Ukraine can show up. I think it's the only good solution to the huge problem Ukraine is facing right now.

There is no such leader. Two parts of the country is just a too damn different. There is no a single leader acceptable for both sides.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Geronimo
It seems that Serb was correct all along in insisting that this controversy ought to be solved in the courts.

The decisions handed down so far certainly don't support the notion that the courts are mere puppets of the incumbant government.

That's the only way to solve the crisis. Democracy is not a power of mob, but power of low. And they should solve it in a civilized manner, through investigation in court. There is no other way.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Serb

Pret ne po-detsky. Nesmotrya na to, chto ya zloupotreblyau iskluchitelno pivom. Ostalnaya bratva hleshet vodku. Prichem hleshet po-vzroslomu. Odnin iz kamradov uzhe sebya ne kontroliruet. Mezhdu nim i drugim komradom proizhodit dialog:
- ty menya uvazhaesh?
- tebe nado domoi!
- tnet, blya, ty menya uvazhaesh?
- tebe nado domoi!
- pochemu?
- da hui ego znaet, no tebe ochen tuda nado, ty uzhe vseh tut zaebal!
- ty menya uvazhaesh?
itd.
Realnyi blin anecdot.

Prizyvnik uzhe kak poltora chasa kak se'balsya, no vesel'e tolko nachinaetsya.
Koroche tipichnyi russkii prazdnik.

OMFG!

[Az]

OMG what a ****hole this thread is. BOTH the west and Russia have tried to rig the elections. BOTH supported their respective candidates. Russia just was slightly better in this case....

[Serb]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
Paraphrasing the Fourth International.

If the purpose of the opposition is to expel a corrupt regime, how come they are backing a candidate who was the head of the central bank from 1991 to 2000, and minister from 2000-2001 under Kuchma, the president?

The average montly wage of an Ukrainian is now 35 euros.

Most of the westerners assume that Russian is the sh!thole. I can assure you guys, that in comparison with Russia, Ukraine is the supreme sh!thole. Furthermore, in comparison with the eastern Ukraine, the western Ukraine is the ultimate and absolute sh!thole.
Now US and EU push eastern Ukraine to accept western Ukranian candidate. Sure, they would.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Azazel
OMG what a ****hole this thread is. BOTH the west and Russia have tried to rig the elections.

Really? I sincerely doubt that the West has sufficient motivation to rig this election. Russia's strategic interest in the Ukraine, on the other hand, is well known...

I can especially vouch for Canada's complete disinterest in the actual outcome of the election, so I wonder why our government has condemned it as flawed if...

[Serb]

Originally posted by Saras


OMFG!

Kak ya i govoril, vse tolko nachinalos. Neozhidano poyavilsya boss. Posle 20-ti minutnoi popytki zachitat' moral' dvum pyanum tovarisham, on nakonez zayavil- zaebali vy menya, shodite luche za konyakom

Koroche ya sobirayus domoi.

[Az]

Really? I sincerely doubt that the West has sufficient motivation to rig this election. Russia's strategic interest in the Ukraine, on the other hand, is well known...

Well, NATO's strategic interest in the Ukraine, is also well known...

[KrazyHorse]

?

Really? It's got a mild strategic interest for sure.

I truly doubt that even the US has sufficient interest to go through with rigging the election.

The fact is that every international election monitoring group in the Ukraine saw extensive evidence of electoral fraud, in addition to excessive one-sided campaigning on the part of the State media.

I don't know how much Russia was directly involved in sabotaging this election. I do know that the election was a joke and that Russia's acceptance of the results has nothing to do with upholding the rule of law. I also know that my dispute with the results has nothing to do with geopolitics, and I'm fairly certain the same is true of my government's dispute...

[Atahualpa]

Update your info. One of the leaders of those peacefull demonstrators called upon takeover of state's buildings to paralize the state and to blockade a roads to paralize the economy....

OMG they'r coming!!
Seriously nothing really severe, no? Just a normal civil disorder. We know that from Civ already.
Everythings comes to a halt so that somebody must do something about it and not sit it through as Yanukovich possibly tried to do.

So far, Russia is the only country which agitated for resolution of the crisis in accordance with Ukranian consitution and law. Other countries just make threats - "accept Yushenko or dare the consequences".

That's just your underestimations. Not a single country said that. Only Putin said something in that direction in favor for Yanukovich.

And if you need an example of really ****ty democracies, look at Afghanistan or Kosovo. There your advanced democratic societies find nothing wrong (since their candidate won).

Not that I want to defend them, but Afghanistan was bombed only recently and is in a build up process. Same with Kosovo. Russia on the other hand was not involved in a war that it did not choose and should have had enough time to evolve as a democratic nation. And not the strange pseudo-democracy that it has become.
There are some very unsatisfying trends in russia.

Any evidences?

Just open your eyes.

Fine. I agitate for the same. If the opposition has evidences of unfair election, they should bring them in a court.
But, I have different opinion about EU and US position. I believe they want to make their candidate a president no matter how. THEY NEED HIM VICTOR.

No, the EU wouldn't dare messing around with Ukraine's political process if it proves that Yanukovich was elected rightfully. They could not dare doing so simply because this would make them look very bad and lose them a lot of reputation and as the EU is still having some inner-EU discrepancies, bad reputation is the least thing they'd want to have.

Besides the questioning of the results did not start from outside, but from within the Ukrain itself.
It's ukrainians marching around in Kiew and not the EU, the US or Russia. We should help all people in the ukraine by guaranteeing them that their descision was made all for themselves and for that matter it is important to press for an investigation.

And Lord God George II and all other Lord Gods of Europe should stay where they belong- in USA and EU.

I agree.

There is no anything obvious that something is fishy. You seem to do not understand.
The main role of observers is to OBSERVE and to COLLECT EVIDENCES for the court if there were any irregularities, NOT TO MAKE CONCLUSSIONS ABOUT LEGITIMACY or ILLEGITIMACY of ELECTION.
Only the court can make such conclusions, not US, not EU, not Russia, not any of thier observers, only GODDAMN COURT.

The court has spoken and it has denied the election results to be published as I heard lately, no need to grab a heart-attack here.

1) The victory of Yanukovich is not acceptable for US and EU. Yushenko is their bet, their investment and their whore.
2) You lack the knowledge about Ukranian law, in case if election turns out to be fraud, there will be NEW ELECTION and BOTH Yushenko and Yanukovich COULDN'T participate in this new election. That's their law.

ad 1) I transform this and say that a defeat of Yanukovich is not acceptable for Putin
ad 2) no problem, good solution IMO

[Serb]

Originally posted by Geronimo
I'm a little surprised that people are challenging Serb's assertion that the USSR kicked Japan's arse after the prior Russo-Japanese War (1904-05). The USSR decisively defeated the Japanese in not one but two large scale land campaigns.

The first was in 1939

Which had profound strategic implications in that it was almost certainly the reason the USSR never had to contend with a two front war in WWII.

The second time would be the already mentioned blitzkreig in the final days of ww2. However even if we dismiss the second cmapaign as too late in WW2 to affect that wars outcome it still cannot change the simple assertion that the USSR soundly defeated the Japanese in that campaign. A successful campaign against enormous military force is all the more successful for being quickly won and the fact that the campaign had no strategic implications in the wider conflict tells us nothing about how one sided such a campaign can be. A 3 day defeat of 900,000 fanatical modern disciplined troops is still a hell of a arse whooping.

Thanks buddy
But actually Soviets didn't defeat Kwantung army within a 3 days (in such case it would have been an absolute world record). They did it within about a month. But still it was the butt-kicking campaign and a worthy pay back.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Just keep telling yourself that Serb. Maybe one day your wish will be granted.

Why should I? It's pretty obvious that your army perform worse in Iraq than Russian army did in Chechnya.
When was the last time when Russian army seiged a city in Chechnya? It was in 2000, it was six moths after the start of the second war.
When was the last time when American army seiged a city in Iraq? They still do and over a year passed since the beggining of war.
Actually, now you face much greater resistance then when you have enetered Iraq. I can't say the same about Russian army in Chechnya.

Just face it, in comparison with the red Army you guys are suckers.

Have a nice day in a fantasy world.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Saras


OMG don't tell me they broke their promise to summarise weekly covert expenditures to Mr.Serb by email

I don't know exact number in cash of American support of Yushenko, except his (Yushenko) official figure of 13 million $ from US government and 7 million from Soros's fund, but I suspect they gave him way more than that.