I debate a college Democrat.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Asher

Yes, third trimester.


If they're in a vegetative state with no hope of coming out of it, then I don't consider them to be human anymore. It's artificially surviving cadaver.

So where does that leave individuals with mental retardation? I guess some would be human and some not. In fact, doesnt it make sense that once you establish a level of 'brain activity' to define humanity that that level could be set anywhere? While impractical, we could define anyone with an IQ lower than 140 as subhuman.

EDIT: BK is hitting the same points so I'll leave it to him

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Again, where do you draw the line. Are some people with higher brain function to be considered more of a person than those without?

If the child can survive outside the womb, then you are really saying that we should also be able to kill infants, because they have less brain function than adults.

Infants have a highly-developed brain, so no.

And it's not humanility isn't relative, don't construct strawmen, Benny...

[Ben Kenobi]

I support 1st trimester abortions only, then.

Then Kerry is still weak on civil liberties.

Would you be willing to ban all abortions done after 13 weeks of pregnancy?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Why include this disclaimer?

Because if there is hope of coming out of it, they are clearly not braindead, and it was a misdiagnosis.

[Ben Kenobi]

And it's not humanility isn't relative, don't construct strawmen, Benny...

Not a straw man at all.

There are people like Peter Singer who say that infants are not sentient.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Then Kerry is still weak on civil liberties.

Would you be willing to ban all abortions done after 13 weeks of pregnancy?

No, because I really don't give a ****.

I don't have to worry about abortions, and it's not my place to decide.

Kerry is strong on civil liberties, in that he supports abortion. This is more of a liberty than someone who takes the stance of banning abortions...

Civil liberties are not granted to people before they're born, legally.

[Asher]

Originally posted by SpencerH
So where does that leave individuals with mental retardation? I guess some would be human and some not. In fact, doesnt it make sense that once you establish a level of 'brain activity' to define humanity that that level could be set anywhere? While impractical, we could define anyone with an IQ lower than 140 as subhuman.

EDIT: BK is hitting the same points so I'll leave it to him

The problem with both of you is you're twisting the argument to me saying only smart people are human.

Todlers, and mentally retarded people, have very highly developed brains. They are considered sentient.

1st trimester fetus are not considered sentient, and do NOT have a highly developed brain...

Either of you boys want to drop the strawmen, or do you have some more?

[Ben Kenobi]

Because if there is hope of coming out of it, they are clearly not braindead, and it was a misdiagnosis.

An unborn child, given time, will attain brain function sufficient for sentience.

If we consider those who are temporarily lacking brain function as persons, then we should also consider unborn children as persons before they attain sentience.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
An unborn child, given time, will attain brain function sufficient for sentience.

Not if they're aborted, Benny.

If we consider those who are temporarily lacking brain function as persons, then we should also consider unborn children as persons before they attain sentience.

The people who become brain dead were already sentient. They have a life, they have family, they have friends...they're part of this world.

A fetus that has not yet become sentient has not yet become a person.

[Ben Kenobi]

Civil liberties are not granted to people before they're born, legally.

Why?

You consider personhood to begin after the first trimester.

Clearly, civil liberties is about granting the protections of personhood to all people, most importantly the right to life.

Therefore, Kerry, is still soft on civil liberties, while Bush, is very strong in comparison.

[Ben Kenobi]

Not if they're aborted, Benny.

Neither will a reverseably comatose patient recover if their throat is slashed.

The people who become brain dead were already sentient. They have a life, they have family, they have friends...they're part of this world.

An unborn child has a mother, and a father, they have family.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Why?

Because that's how it is. I didn't write the laws, don't look at me.

Neither will a reverseably comatose patient recover if their throat is slashed.

They had already obtained sentience and entered this world.

I draw a distinction between becoming a person and entering the world, and having the potential to become a person.

An unborn child has a mother, and a father, they have family.

The mother and father decided to abort said child.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Asher

The problem with both of you is you're twisting the argument to me saying only smart people are human.

Todlers, and mentally retarded people, have very highly developed brains. They are considered sentient.

1st trimester fetus are not considered sentient, and do NOT have a highly developed brain...

Either of you boys want to drop the strawmen, or do you have some more?

There is no strawman. I carefully asked you your position. You made it clear that brain function, and not anatomy, was not the deciding factor. Brain dead individuals, who you've stated are no longer human, have exactly the same 'highly developed brain", it just isnt working.

If one chooses an arbitrary level of brain function in order to define humanity for a fetus then one has to accept that there will be non-fetus who will also "fit the bill".

[Ben Kenobi]

Asher:

How do you know the father wanted the abortion?

[Asher]

Originally posted by SpencerH
There is no strawman. I carefully asked you your position. You made it clear that brain function, and not anatomy, was not the deciding factor. Brain dead individuals, who you've stated are no longer human, have exactly the same 'highly developed brain", it just isnt working.

I thought the functional part would be assumed...it doesn't matter if someone has a brain and it doesn't work.

If one chooses an arbitrary level of brain function in order to define humanity for a fetus then one has to accept that there will be non-fetus who will also "fit the bill".

No, I think you'd have a hard time proving any sentient human has the developed/active brain of a 1st trimester fetus.

In fact, if you're going to continue that argument, you're going to have to show me some sentient humans have the brain activity of a 1st trimester fetus...