The Chechen Dilemma

[Ted Striker]

Well, the Russians did learn from the first Chechen war.

This time they made heavy use of laser guided munitions, and also used smarter tactics that didn't rely on WW2 wave style frontal assualts.

There was lots of use of small sized units luring out the separatists from their hiding places where they wouldn't be in the midst of large population centers.

There is a big difference between the first war and the second.

Where are you getting those estimates and for what time period.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

History sites on the web. Since the second war is still technically ongoing, its supposedly since 1999 and the Dagestan campaign, at least for the Chechen numbers. The Russian casualties are as of January 2000 (the latest I can find).

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Commies want to proclaim their rigged elections as fair but shoot down everyone else's.



I guess they take things where they can...

Which elections have I proclaimed rigged in recent memory?

As I recall, I've only shot down the Pakistani referendum on Mussharef and Saddam's preinvasion election...

[Geronimo]

That was an amazing post Serb. thanks! I have had tremendous difficulty finding such detailed information about the 1996-1999 governing of Chechyna. It does indeed appear that a blind eye is being turned to the greivences you describe. However I did finally manage to find a western media link PBS discussion of start of second war

which agrees with your news that Islamic sharia law was imposed in Chechnya.

The account of the chechen period of autonomy you give in your post appears to make far more sense than the understanding I held previously, and so far I can't find any credible source that contradicts any of the details you gave us. Thanks!

[Ned]

Serb

[Pekka]

Also let's not forget, that there is familiar things, like paying to the suicidebombers etc families. This is true. I just saw it in our TV when our experts described the Chechens and why they would do such things. He said that there are even some people, who are in debt, and there's no way to pay it, so, if they just go blow up themselves or do things like that, their debt will be forgiven. As one reason, plus there were MANY other reasons why they do those things. And none of them were acceptable reasons of course.

So I'd say, it still has some of that Taliban flavour to it. I supported their independence, but they ****ed it up. I supported that they'll get it again, but who are we kidding, they can't keep their **** together. I'd say too bad, they had a chance, and if they'll get another, they'll **** it up again.

[Ned]

Pekka, let me ask. Did you know everything that Serb has reported concerning the recent history of Chechnya when you twice made up your mind that Chechnya had to be independent?

[Pekka]

I haven't read the long post from Serb in this page. So no, and I still don' tknow what he says in it.

First time I thought they should be independent is because I heard they want to be independent. That's enough for me to think well maybe they should be independent. Well, then happened some war, and some more war, I mean the later ones and I thought Russia should think about leaving, and it won't end before they get independence anyway, and that they are putting themselves into a situation, where they can't back down anymore and will have to stay there forever, so it would be good to leave ASAP. But then that point was crossed, so you know, I don't think they should give it anymore. I think that Chechens have pretty much ruined their own chances and I think they can't be trusted anymore, and that Russia should be able to make that call and say NO, because they can't trust them at all. Independence don't guarantee they won't be doing that stuff. It just doesn't. Not anymore.

[Ned]

Pekka, I recommend reading the Serb post. It is moving.

[Pekka]

Ned, Oh, I read your message wrong, so my answer sounded weird . now is the correct answer. I read that when did you decide they DON'T deserve the independence anymore.

[Pekka]

Also, I recieved an e-mail from a friend that says we can put a candle on, many people will be doing this for the kids who got killed in that school. So I'm lighting one up, and if you have any candles in the house, you can do the same.

[Serb]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous


Well that's not ENTIRELY true...Russia gave autonomy but claimed Chechnya as its territory. Its as if Great Britain had given autonomy to India but retained India as its territory: it just doesn't fly with the people who live there.

Once again, in 1996, in city Hasaviyurt Chechen leader Maskhadov and Chief of Security Concil of Russia, general Lebed signed a truce. This treaty said that all Russian forces should withdraw from Chechnya immidiently. After this threaty and withdrawal of ALL Russian troops and cops from Chechnya, Russia lost ANY control over the region. It wasn't controlled from Moscow anymore. Six months later, Maskhadov visited Moscow, where he meet Yeltsin and they signed another treaty- The Treaty about PEACE and priniciples of relationships between Chechen Republic Ichkeria and Russian Federation. This treaty once again confirmed that Kremlin has no control over Chechya and that status of Chechnya (shoud it be recognized as independent state or should it be a part of Russian Federation) should be determinated in year 2001. Untill this moment- 2001, Chechens are free do to whatever they wish, no Kremlin cotrol anymore, no more Moscow influence, except than Russia should pay reparations for reconstruction of the republic and pensions and other payments to Chechen people (non of that money actually reached people in Chechnya, since their government used it for different purposes, such as purchases of weaponry).
That's how it was in accordance with treaties, non of that treaties said that Chechnya considered as part of Russia- they said its staus is not determinated untill 2001. And the second treaty was a PEACE TREATY. Peace treaties usally signed between countries involved in war, not between a country and part of its territory.
Maskhadov and his government violated this treaty in 1999 when they invaded Russian Republic Dagestan. They've violated this treaty before many times by starting a campaign of terror against Russian Federation while Chechnya was de-facto independent, but invasion in Dagestan was the PURE ACT OF WAR, it was a DECLARATION OF WAR. And this war wasn't about independence of Chechnya, since they already had it, it was Jihad against Christian Russia.
They had their chance to be independent, they screwed it up. They promised to live in peace with Russia, if Russian forces will leave Chechnya and Kermlin will not tell them how to live and will not control them within five years, and they violated this treaty- they attacked Russia in 1999.
No way they will get independence. No country would give them independence after such behaviour, because it's stupid and irrational.

[Ted Striker]

[Sprayber]

Weither or not the chechens deserve independence isn't important. A significant portion seems to want it. The question becomes how much pain Russia is willing to endure and what measures they are willing to implement to keep Chechnyia apart of the Russian Federation. Apparently some Chechens are willing to comment terrible acts of violence against the weakest members of Russian soceity.

What is Russia willing to endure? What is Russia willing to do. The chechens have made it pretty clear that they are willing to do.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Uncle Sparky
Serb - I rarely take time to read the long posts, but your's was worth it. What happened was outragous and I understand your pain.

With the tradition of blood libel, is there a solution ? ...

There is only one solution- religious extremism and terrorism must die. Chechnya or any other place on this planet shouldn't be a safe place for Islamic religious extremists (thought they can't be called muslims, since they are followers of corrupt vahhabite teachings).
Untill vahhabites who hides in Chechnya still alive and continue their Jihad against unfaithfull, independence of Chechnya is out of question. It would be pretty stupid to withdraw, becuase they will establish their camps again, recover and attack again. They will keep doing this over and over again, untill they win (and their victory means- extermination of unfaithfull heretics), or untill they die.
If there will be no terrorists and religious extremists in Chechnya, if there will be 100% guaranty that Chechnya will not become a huge camp and bridgehead for extremists and their Jihad and if there will be 100% guaranty that people of Chechnya would live in peace with their neighbours and live in peace with people of all natioanalities and religions inside Chechnya, and if Chechen people will want to be independent then- fine.
In short, If there will be absolute guaranty that 1996-2004 will never happen again - fine, let them go. Nobody will cry about them here. Now Chechnya is a real black hole in Russian budget and we have plenty of ways how to use our money elsewhere.
But untill then- no f*cking way, we had more then enough of that crap and know how it ends.