Iraqi Transfer of Power

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lincoln
Ever heard the expression "experience is the best teacher"? I am a Vietnam vet. I know what it is like to be second guessed by people who don't have the slightest idea what they are talking about. And I know the damage it does to moral when people constantly pick at the mistakes and refuse to see any success. The left does not want success in Iraq unless it is accomplished by a Democrat. They glory in failure as long as Bush is in charge. Meanwhile brave men die trying to help the people and the left continues to descourage them in their efforts. Also, I am not talking about specific people but the nitpicking left in general. Why not have some patience and see if the efforts actually pay off. Nothing will change overnight.

1. I don;t care what your own personal vietnam experience was. Millions of American served in Vietnam- and they all don't share your take on it. you experiences are singular, and derive few if any grand lessons. Anymore than any of my experiences derive grand lessons.

2. Maybe you are in too much of a self-righteous huff to read-so I will say it again. Soldiers execute policy-they don;t make it. If the policy is wrong, then no amount of high morale will make it work- men happily, gladly and valiantly marhcing into machinegun fire does not make for victory. Just ask your predecessors in WW1.

So maybe this is what you utterly fail to get- I think the POLICY the administration has laid out has failed. I think the proof of it is n the events in Iraq. Ask oerdin if he is disillusioned, and ask him to ask his buddies, if thy have a low morale, is it Sava's fault, or is it the fault of trying to make failed policies work (answer is if the policy is bad, no matter how much good will will make it so).

[Lincoln]

Meanwhile gepap you haven't sacrificed anything but you still have plenty of advice for those who have. Your advice is worthless to those who actually have seen the cost of protecting YOUR freedom. (And I am not talking about myself. I floated around in a submarine eating tacos during Vietnam )

[Lincoln]

BTW, What is your policy? Turn tail and run or allow Saddam to continue hanging people by their toes while he laughs at the UN? Maybe we should have let France solve the problem with their threat of veto "regardless" of what the rest of the UN agrees to. What is your plan to fight terrorism? I would love to hear it so I can ridicule it. It must be fun to throw stones at the efforts of someone else. Is it, or do you do it reluctantly?

[Whaleboy]

Amazing how the pro-war people are so far up Bush's arse, still apparently trying to pick his ****

I think troops should stay though, clear up the mess they created. Some people just don't know when to let go. I think the past 15 months has pretty much vindicated the anti-war arguments, as the pro-war arguments have fallen like dominoes, leaving only the naive or the insanely and stupidly patriotic able to support the war .

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sava
So Fezcarlo, if you want to debate this... then stick to the facts. If I say Allawi is unpopular and a US-puppet... then post something supporting your point of view.

Most evidence ive seen indicates that opinion on Allawi in Iraq is divided between supportive and "wait and see" this includes reports from the main stream media, including NPR. It also included the recent poll which we've already discussed.

as for being a US puppet, thats pretty subjective. I mean there are people here who think Blair is a US puppet. Its pretty clear Allawi received support from CIA (but before that from MI6 why doesnt anyone call him a UK puppet?) Its also clear, that like all exiles receiving US support, he was playing his own game. Its not clear whether his "coup" against Brahimi was with or against the US - particularly difficult to discern since the US admin was itself divided on Brahimi - Blackwill for, neocons skeptical at best - and the CIA - I havent heard. Certainly moving forward hes going to want good relations with the US - but thats logical, given his political situation. I expect his relations with the US the next 6 months to be quite nuanced - certainly enough so for simpleminded extremists on all sides to paint him as they will.


The key questions are going to be the timing and structuring of elections. Many key pundits from all over the spectrum would like to see early elections - thats tied in with legitimacy concerns, and the freedom to make more permanent changes in Iraq that an interim govt cant make. Allawi was quoted as talking about delaying past jan, but quickly stepped back from that. Some neocons, notably Michael Rubin, have been attacking an outgoing Bremer order establishing Prop Rep in a single nationwide constituency. I dont see anyone taking this argument up, however.

why the turnover 2 days early

some ideas ive seen
1. Zarqs guys were going to use the date of the turnover to coordinate countrywide attacks. "oops, thats already happened. What do i do know - boom today, boom on Wednesday as planned, or wait till later? Gotta check back with HQ
2. Gonna be some big booms anyway. With Bremer already gone, cant make the case that Bremer was fleeing the booms
3. Allawis about to come down very hard - martial law, attack Fallujah, etc. Every day sooner, the better.
4. If the booms happen anyway, its harder to say the booms are against an occupation that no longer exists

[Lincoln]

Fifteen months. Do you know how many months it took to stabilize Europe after WW2? How about Japan? Fifteen months is nothing. Tell me it was a faliure in three years and you may have a point.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lincoln
Why not join the army Gepap? Maybe you would see both sides then. You must admit that it was real armies that saved the world from Hitler during ww2. The concept cannot be all bad unless you believe that Hitler and his ilk (present day terrorists etc.) can be talkied out of their aggression.

yet again.

First, to compare this misadventure to WW2 is absurd.

2. Yes, the German regime was beaten militarily. So was the Saddam regime. But we are now talking about the occupation and the policies around that. Which is less a situation of fighting pitched battles and more about restoring law and order and security.

[Lincoln]

You should read up on Japan and Germany and the rest of Europe just after WW2. The transformation of Japan was remarkable in itself under occupation but it took quite a few years. Don't give up hope for Iraq yet. I have to go to work now so see you later. My apologies if I offended you. I do get a little hot sometimes.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lincoln
Fifteen months. Do you know how many months it took to stabilize Europe after WW2? How about Japan? Fifteen months is nothing. Tell me it was a faliure in three years and you may have a point.

again. That is getting all to common.

Oh, on the previous crack. Iraq was not a threat to my freedoms. Hence the men over there aren;t there "protecting my freedoms". Get that straight.

to this one:

How long did it take to "stabalize" Japan? Wjat do you mean by that? To return to law and order? In Japan less than 15 months, given the US coopted the emperor and the bureaucracy. If you mean rebuold the political system, that took much longer. Ditto for Germany. IN both cases, political control was returned to the locals long after stability was achieved, at least the stability of not being fearful about kidnappings and crime and insurrections and so forth.

Neither of these things can be said about Iraq.

And then, of course, we can compare the events that have occured vs. the prediction and claims made before the war. See, the Allies were planning the postwar for years before they beat the enemy. It does not seem the admin. planned for the aftermath until the aftermath got away from them.

[Lincoln]

Gotta run. You might try some new smilies next time. They really do not prove your point.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

i got newsfor you

vietnam was in no way protecting our freedoms - nor was korea, or Gulf War I, or GUlf War II, or any war for a long long time.

get a clue.

[Verto]

[Evil Knevil]

[Verto]

This is so sad. You really are ready to piss on any news that could, in any way, benefit Bush or the United States.

[Verto]

And I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but Allawi was the one who had asked for the transfer of power to be moved up.