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What do I care for Bush or the United States?
I regard the handover as a further chain in the link of disaster that has followed the invasion.
I regard the handover as a further chain in the link of disaster that has followed the invasion.
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Res ipsa loquitur -
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Lucky that you can sleep tight in your bed.Res ipsa loquiturComment
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Anything else?Comment
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The key questions are going to be the timing and structuring of elections. Many key pundits from all over the spectrum would like to see early elections - thats tied in with legitimacy concerns, and the freedom to make more permanent changes in Iraq that an interim govt cant make. Allawi was quoted as talking about delaying past jan, but quickly stepped back from that. Some neocons, notably Michael Rubin, have been attacking an outgoing Bremer order establishing Prop Rep in a single nationwide constituency. I dont see anyone taking this argument up, however.
PR is practically inconsequential compared to the rest of the problems Iraq faces; I'd say that free and fair elections, PR or not, at this point would be somewhat optimistic. The real issue will be marshal law. And how anyone's going run an election campaign under marshal law, under the eyes of a revived Mukhabarat. And how Iraqi civil society will respond to it. And what Allawi will do if someone like Sistani takes a stand against it. And whether Allawi will take a que from his ideological compatriots in Syria, and have a 40-odd year period of marshal law.
What puzzles me is why Jaafari called for marshal law. There's no point in him delaying elections given that he'd likely be PM after free elections in Iraq. And his agenda ain't going to prosper under Allawi's marshal law (or maybe there's been a deal made, who knows). Motivated by desperation maybe, but he ought to know better."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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I thin it's much more the latter than the former. It's interesting that there were no public celebrations in Baghdad, celebratory shots, etc. Points to the public being not particularly enthusiastic about the handover.Most evidence ive seen indicates that opinion on Allawi in Iraq is divided between supportive and "wait and see""Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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From what I have been reading, the main reason Iraqis are SO disillusioned with the US is our failure to give them security. The greatest danger to their civil liberties on a day to day basis comes from insurgents, bombs, criminals, kidnappers, and other non-state violence.Originally posted by Ramo
The key questions are going to be the timing and structuring of elections. Many key pundits from all over the spectrum would like to see early elections - thats tied in with legitimacy concerns, and the freedom to make more permanent changes in Iraq that an interim govt cant make. Allawi was quoted as talking about delaying past jan, but quickly stepped back from that. Some neocons, notably Michael Rubin, have been attacking an outgoing Bremer order establishing Prop Rep in a single nationwide constituency. I dont see anyone taking this argument up, however.
PR is practically inconsequential compared to the rest of the problems Iraq faces; I'd say that free and fair elections, PR or not, at this point would be somewhat optimistic. The real issue will be marshal law.
LOTM - I assume you mean martial law. Marshall law is something they mainly have in Texas, I think.
And how anyone's going run an election campaign under marshal law
LOTM - I assume the plan is to impose martial law in limited areas, and to move past sufficiently before the elections.
, under the eyes of a revived Mukhabarat.
LOTM - The mukhbarat will have to be used against violent insurgents, and against foreigners, and live within the rule of law. Vetting will be important.
And how Iraqi civil society will respond to it. And what Allawi will do if someone like Sistani takes a stand against it.
LOTM - he'll have to work WITH Sistani. I think Sistani is not happy with the state of lawlessness in Fallujah, though I could be wrong.
And whether Allawi will take a que from his ideological compatriots in Syria
LOTM - Come now, Allawi left the Baath decades ago, and was almost killed by the Baath. Hes no more an ideological compatriot of Syria than Yeltsin was an ideological compatriot of Castro.
and have a 40-odd year period of marshal law.
LOTM - very unlikely, IMHO.
What puzzles me is why Jaafari called for marshal law.
LOTM - perhaps the continued murder of Iraqi civilians by the insurgency has something to do with it. I would particularly point to the murder and mutilation of 6 Shia truck drivers in Fallujah.
There's no point in him delaying elections given that he'd likely be PM after free elections in Iraq.
LOTM - I dont think he sees martial law as delaying elections, but as a step toward the security needed to bring elections forward.
And his agenda ain't going to prosper under Allawi's marshal law (or maybe there's been a deal made, who knows). Motivated by desperation maybe, but he ought to know better.
Martial law can encompass a host of measures - from quite reasonable ones, to full fledge dictatorship. I think we need to see what Iraqis mean by it before trying figure out the motivations of different politicians."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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so now we can really call it an occupation right? cuz its a soverign nation and we have our military in there.
and why dont they have that CIA memo or Bush's plan to find a way to invade iraq (even if that meant lying which he did) memo photo?"Everything for the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State" - Benito MussoliniComment
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slight troll.... but
What about the flag? Do you all remember the announcement of the New and Improved Iraqi flag? Y'know? The one that looked somewhat like the Isreali flag?
Well in all the photos I see of the turnover ceremony, they're standing in front of rows of Saddam's Iraqi Flag! Ack! I guess the new sovereign govt made their first choice?
Anyone else catch this? Did I just miss a news report titled: "Stupid New Flag Idea Shot Down Over Iraq"?Comment
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Wrong.Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
so now we can really call it an occupation right? cuz its a soverign nation and we have our military in there.Comment
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yeah how many troops did we have in post-war Germany or post-war Japan?? and about 150k in Iraq. So don't even make brain-dead comparisons like that.Originally posted by Lincoln
Fifteen months. Do you know how many months it took to stabilize Europe after WW2? How about Japan? Fifteen months is nothing. Tell me it was a faliure in three years and you may have a point.To us, it is the BEAST.Comment
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oh **** you're right. you've convinced me.Wrong.
"Everything for the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State" - Benito MussoliniComment
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1. I think they want to distance themselves from whatever the IGC did, since its not clear it has any legal meaning now that the occupation is over. So instead they will want to select a new flag themselves. And i think they want to make it clear that they consider establishing security more important than picking a flag, in contrast to the IGCOriginally posted by Xeones
slight troll.... but
What about the flag? Do you all remember the announcement of the New and Improved Iraqi flag? Y'know? The one that looked somewhat like the Isreali flag?
Well in all the photos I see of the turnover ceremony, they're standing in front of rows of Saddam's Iraqi Flag! Ack! I guess the new sovereign govt made their first choice?
Anyone else catch this? Did I just miss a news report titled: "Stupid New Flag Idea Shot Down Over Iraq"?
2. The flag didnt seem to popular. I think they'll go back to something close to the pre-1958 flag."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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Yeah, martial law. Sometimes I think I'm dyslexic.
Yes, obviously security is a huge concern. That's what I meant by the desperation comment. But I don't think the situation is extreme enough to warrant martial law, and I don't think most Iraqis buy the idea (which is why the INA is still only a party of exiles).
And I don't trust Allawi in the least. And would not trust him with a police state. Seems like nothing more than a moderate Saddam.
Come now, Allawi left the Baath decades ago, and was almost killed by the Baath. Hes no more an ideological compatriot of Syria than Yeltsin was an ideological compatriot of Castro.
There's hardly a single conception of the Ba'ath, and certainly paranoia is an omnipresent feature in Saddam's Ba'ath. Anyways, his party is connected to other Ba'athist parties, and is built from Ba'athists, especially from the army. And he's been calling for a police state for a while.
I wasn't aware that a plan has been publicly released yet.I assume the plan is to impose martial law in limited areas, and to move past sufficiently before the elections.
He also seems to be pretty weary about delays and obstructions to elections.he'll have to work WITH Sistani. I think Sistani is not happy with the state of lawlessness in Fallujah, though I could be wrong.
Saying what is or isn't likely is absurd, given that he's just taken over the country. Just throwing out a possibility.very unlikely, IMHO."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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This thread is really amusing to the outside observer
Perhaps you all can stop calling each other "idiots" and "terrorists" and such and talk about the issue again?
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