Iraqi Transfer of Power

[Verto]

Thanks for that observation you idiotic terrorist scum.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

who says the comrade is on the outside? visiting this thread is enough to put you on the inside

[Nubclear]

Your welcome, you big poopoo head

To TheReagan, of course

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ramo
Yeah, martial law. Sometimes I think I'm dyslexic.

Yes, obviously security is a huge concern. That's what I meant by the desperation comment. But I don't think the situation is extreme enough to warrant martial law, and I don't think most Iraqis buy the idea (which is why the INA is still only a party of exiles).

And I don't trust Allawi in the least. And would not trust him with a police state. Seems like nothing more than a moderate Saddam.

Ok, i think we have the disconnect. Martial law != police state. There are lots of measure that could be implemented as martial law, and they could be implemented in limited areas. I dont see anyone suggesting a "police state"

Come now, Allawi left the Baath decades ago, and was almost killed by the Baath. Hes no more an ideological compatriot of Syria than Yeltsin was an ideological compatriot of Castro.

There's hardly a single conception of the Ba'ath, and certainly paranoia is an omnipresent feature in Saddam's Ba'ath. Anyways, his party is connected to other Ba'athist parties, and is built from Ba'athists, especially from the army. And he's been calling for a police state for a while.

LOTM Allawis party is built from men who LEFT the Baathists. Who were plotting to overthrow the Baathists. Look, anyone who held a high position in the army or govt was a member of the Baath. You didnt have a choice. It was look being a member of the CPSU. It didnt necessarily mean real ideological commitment.

I wasn't aware that a plan has been publicly released yet.

LOTM - no, i think several ideas are being tossed around.

He also seems to be pretty weary about delays and obstructions to elections.

LOTM - yup, and i dont expect that to change

Saying what is or isn't likely is absurd, given that he's just taken over the country. Just throwing out a possibility.

LOTM - Hes got a coalition government, with Jaafari as VP, a Kurd as Deputy PM for security etc. I dont see the political alignment there for Allawi to pull off a coup and become leader for life, as you seem to imply. Nothing is impossible, but some things are more likely than other things. We can talk here in the abstract about "Iraqi strongmen" but id wait till I see that developing on the ground in Iraq.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Your welcome, you big poopoo head

To TheReagan, of course

That's Comrade Big Poopoo Head to you!

[lord of the mark]

"Allawi has said his government will pass new laws giving security forces a stronger hand in arrests and allowing them to impose curfews. "

we'll see what "stronger hand in arrests" means. I dont think curfews means a police state.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

how does this govt function? is it in the american style, where the man with the most votes loses?

[GePap]

Bush today sais he would support a martial law decree to restore order. If you think about it, only the coolition armies could enforce martial law.

Anyway, are the courts in Iraq up enought for there to be civil rule for all infractures?

Nohting will change on the ground significantly until there are sufficient Iraqi security forces- most enforcement will still be coolition.

Interesting to see will be the deliberations on the constitution, which is the main point of this gov: How much federalism will be included, aka how much autonomy do the kurds get?

[Case]

Bush today sais he would support a martial law decree to restore order. If you think about it, only the coolition armies could enforce martial law

Hey, call me crazy, but hasn't Iraq been under martial law for about 15 months now? It doesn't seem to be working very well.

[Geronimo]

didn't quite finish this thread yet, but FYI relevant to the earlier discussion of the werewolf activities in occupied Germany is a 2 hour program on the history channel tonight starting at 12 am eastern (or starting the "morning" of june 29 if you wanted to be anally technical). The program is titled "Nazi Guerrillas". I saw the tail end of it on the earlier broadcast and it ended with compare/contrast with the current gulf war which seemed to suggest a bias somewhat like that of Gepap's thinking but I'll have to tape it, see it myself and then check out it's sources before I judge it completely.

[GePap]

a nice article about the claims of how this insurgency is like what went on in germany:

http://hnn.us/articles/1655.html

another one:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087768/

and quote:

It's hard to understand exactly what Rumsfeld was saying, but if he meant that the Nazi resisters killed Americans after the surrender, this would be news. According to America's Role in Nation-Building: From Germany to Iraq, a new study by former Ambassador James Dobbins, who had a lead role in the Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, and Kosovo reconstruction efforts, and a team of RAND Corporation researchers, the total number of post-conflict American combat casualties in Germany—and Japan, Haiti, and the two Balkan cases—was zero.

and more:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2089987/

and

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/Ricehoaxedstoryexposed17jan04.shtml

and

http://www.aicgs.org/c/livingston011004.shtml

AND an interesitng net debate on the documentary first shonw by the History channel in May that mentions the slate articles mentioned AND what MM posted, hich by the way seems to be one of only 2 sources that claim much of a resistance, as opposed to say the official US army history.

http://www.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultima...bb=print_topic;f=36;t=000534

and an interview with one of the talking heads in the documentary:

http://www.urhome.umd.edu/newsdesk/archive/release.cfm?year=2003&ArticleID=849

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Lincoln
Ever heard the expression "experience is the best teacher"? I am a Vietnam vet. I know what it is like to be second guessed by people who don't have the slightest idea what they are talking about. And I know the damage it does to moral when people constantly pick at the mistakes and refuse to see any success. The left does not want success in Iraq unless it is accomplished by a Democrat. They glory in failure as long as Bush is in charge. Meanwhile brave men die trying to help the people and the left continues to descourage them in their efforts. Also, I am not talking about specific people but the nitpicking left in general. Why not have some patience and see if the efforts actually pay off. Nothing will change overnight.

[Ted Striker]

Today, the reconstruction of an Iraqi judiciary and widely publicized trials of leading figures of the old regime are crucial. So too are citizens commissions which aid Iraqis to tell their stories of life under the old regime. Now is the time for collecting testimony and oral histories. If there are Iraqi historians, in exile or in Iraq who were not compromised by participation in the old regime, now is the time for them, in association with the American and British occupation, to document the truth about life under Saddam. The citizens commissions, or Spruchkammern of the occupation years, produced a massive amount of material which compelled Germans to look at who had done what in the past. Such documentation should also include examination of the actions of the Iraqi academic and intellectual establishment under the old regime. Ascertaining degrees of complicity in Germany was difficult, time-consuming and often less than a success. Such periods are a field day for opportunists and cynics. But young people in Germany after 1945 -- as in Iraq today -- deserved the truth about who did what under the old regime.

THIS IS WHAT IS SORELY LACKING

Putting Saddam on trial is desparatley needed along with what is mentioned above.

From GePap's article.

[GePap]

That would be great- do not the follow-up thought- by the time the US handed over soveringty to the Germans, the old regime was throuroughly crused and order restored, for years. And even after Germany became a democracy in 1948, it was not until 1955 that the last vestiges of the occupation ended.

We are trying to turn back governing to the Iraqis without security fully established, and a very turbulent political climate.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Lincoln
Ever heard the expression "experience is the best teacher"? I am a Vietnam vet. I know what it is like to be second guessed by people who don't have the slightest idea what they are talking about. And I know the damage it does to moral when people constantly pick at the mistakes and refuse to see any success. The left does not want success in Iraq unless it is accomplished by a Democrat. They glory in failure as long as Bush is in charge. Meanwhile brave men die trying to help the people and the left continues to descourage them in their efforts. Also, I am not talking about specific people but the nitpicking left in general. Why not have some patience and see if the efforts actually pay off. Nothing will change overnight.

Well, if we're talking about disrespect for the soldiers over in Iraq, I sure hope you denounced that public dinner appearance by President Bush when he made distasteful jokes about our war effort in Iraq.

And while we're talking about the disrespect for soldiers in Iraq, I sure hope that you are angry with President Bush AND candidate Kerry for using the efforts of American soldiers in Iraq for their own political campaigns.

And while we're talking about disrespect for soldiers in Iraq, I am hoping that you were angry the way Republicans tried to tar and villify Kerry and McCain in order to try to undermine the respect they have as Vietnam War veterans.

While we're talking about disrespect for soldiers in Iraq, I will feel better if you're denouncing the soldiers who have committed war crimes over in Iraq, thus undermining the patriotic, brave duty of the majority of our other soldiers who are doing the best job that they can do.



Let's face it -- disrespect towards our soldiers is not dependent on what political ideology you adhere to, or what political party you adhere to.

And as far as any extreme, worshipful bias I have for Democrats -- there are past Democratic presidents whose policies I have detested (Clinton being last one).



Anything else you want to share?