Iraqi Transfer of Power

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by MrFun
As for equating all liberals with having this sadistic desire for failure in Iraq . . . . .

the purpose of criticism is not to undermine the war effort (unless it really is the war itself that you oppose) but to protest bad policy decisions and to advocate for other possibly better decisions.

That would be all well and good. I would welcome reasonable discourse were anyone to offer better alternatives. Problem as I see it is plenty of criticism but no real meaningful alternatives suggested other than we were wrong in the first place. This is as helpful as telling a drowning man he should have taken swimming lessons.

[Evil Knevil]

But first you have to make him realise he's drowning

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Verto
Thanks for that observation you idiotic terrorist scum.

says General Sanchez to the new Iraqi President a week or so from now

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


That would be all well and good. I would welcome reasonable discourse were anyone to offer better alternatives. Problem as I see it is plenty of criticism but no real meaningful alternatives suggested other than we were wrong in the first place. This is as helpful as telling a drowning man he should have taken swimming lessons.

And it's as helpful to label all liberals as American-hating in engaging in reasonable discourse.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Mr Fun,

Agreed.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Evil Knevil
But first you have to make him realise he's drowning

Actually therein lies the rub.

Screaming "Your gonna die you dumb****e! Your drowning asshat! etc. " dos not help the situation but only makes the man panic further and thus accelerates his death.

Reason and rationality are his only chance.

[Agathon]

Ever heard the expression "experience is the best teacher"? I am a Vietnam vet. I know what it is like to be second guessed by people who don't have the slightest idea what they are talking about.

The people who turned out to be 100% right. You got duped into interfering in someone else's war of anti-colonial liberation by anti-communist paranoiacs who didn't understand the first thing about the history or culture of the people they were "protecting". For this reason millions of lives were wasted and a country devastated. And it was all for nothing in the end as the US got its arse whipped.

Of course there are still some people who feel compelled to defend it, but in retrospect the whole thing was just silly.

Interfering in a country you know nothing about and whose people can't stand you... Sound familar?

And I know the damage it does to moral when people constantly pick at the mistakes and refuse to see any success. The left does not want success in Iraq unless it is accomplished by a Democrat.

The real left don't want success in Iraq at all, as it would set a dangerous precedent. It would have been better if the lesson could have been learned without the expense, but Bush is a stubborn and ignorant man.

They glory in failure as long as Bush is in charge. Meanwhile brave men die trying to help the people and the left continues to descourage them in their efforts.

Because the whole war is bull and its success would lead to more idiotic adventures. It may surprise you, but the majority of the world do not like the idea of the US forcing people to accord with its own diseased ideals.

Also, I am not talking about specific people but the nitpicking left in general. Why not have some patience and see if the efforts actually pay off. Nothing will change overnight.

Why should we want it to succeed? Success would only encourage the lunatics who think that it is the manifest destiny of the US to impose its own ideals on the rest of us by force.

[Arrian]

The real left don't want success in Iraq at all, as it would set a dangerous precedent. It would have been better if the lesson could have been learned without the expense, but Bush is a stubborn and ignorant man.

Because the whole war is bull and its success would lead to more idiotic adventures. It may surprise you, but the majority of the world do not like the idea of the US forcing people to accord with its own diseased ideals.

Then they are fools. "Success" of the type that would produce more of Iraq-style adventures is already out the window. "Success" at this point would simply be a stable Iraq that has some semblence of democracy. Which will have come at a very high cost, both in dollar figure and diplomatic capital, not to mention coalition casualties (which, in the grand scheme of things remain pretty low) and civilian casualties/damage. The whole experience has been quite traumatic for the U.S., and even more so for those allies that joined us. Therefore, I disagree strongly with your assertion that success would lead to more Iraqs.

Outright failure (Iraq collapses into anarchy and becomes a terrorist breeding ground, or becomes radical islamist state, or any number of other possible disasterous scenarios) would be terrible, for both the Right and the Left in the West. But the far Left doesn't seem to give a **** - they're willing to have that happen to prove a point that, IMO, has already been proven.

-Arrian

[Verto]

Because the whole war is bull and its success would lead to more idiotic adventures. It may surprise you, but the majority of the world do not like the idea of the US forcing people to accord with its own diseased ideals.

As Arrian said. There's no way any more operations will be carried out like Iraqi Freedom. Hoping we fail in Iraq for this reason, or any reason....

[Giancarlo]

The real left would rather see tens of thousands Iraqis dead in a civil war. That's how the real left is. I think they are evil scum.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Arrian

Then they are fools. "Success" of the type that would produce more of Iraq-style adventures is already out the window. "Success" at this point would simply be a stable Iraq that has some semblence of democracy. Which will have come at a very high cost, both in dollar figure and diplomatic capital, not to mention coalition casualties...

Well, if you don't want to mention it, fine.

However, the cost implications are important. If the current Iraqi regime survives, would it justify the cost?

The cost is really getting rid of Saddam, not giving the Iraqis democracy. That's more of a happy byproduct.

Only when the matter is over will the true cost be known - but it is likely the US electorate is going to collectively crap themselves when they get the final demand.

Originally posted by Arrian

Outright failure (Iraq collapses into anarchy and becomes a terrorist breeding ground, or becomes radical islamist state, or any number of other possible disasterous scenarios) would be terrible, for both the Right and the Left in the West. But the far Left doesn't seem to give a **** - they're willing to have that happen to prove a point that, IMO, has already been proven.

-Arrian

It is the purpose of opposition parties to oppose the govt. I personally think them going along with the whole idea without moaning and *****ing a much worse prospect.

Democracy can be ugly sometimes.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Verto

Because the whole war is bull and its success would lead to more idiotic adventures. It may surprise you, but the majority of the world do not like the idea of the US forcing people to accord with its own diseased ideals.

As Arrian said. There's no way any more operations will be carried out like Iraqi Freedom. Hoping we fail in Iraq for this reason, or any reason....

Actually time heals wounds and dulls memories. Were the cost that high, memories of Vietnam clearly would have prevented Iraqi Freedom.

Give it a 30-40 year window and most anything is possible. Likewise Aggies contention that hoping for failure is misguided given a long enough timeline.

[Bereta_Eder]

why is failure used to signify iraq being liberated from its occupiers and the people establishing a true sovereignity over their country?

that's success. wether it happens or not, although things are not as black and white. % of resistance = % of leverage

and yeah the more resistance there is
a)it's good 'cause it drives occupiers and murderers away and opens the way for people to take their own fate and country in their own hands
b) it will disuade america from trying anything else in the near future. this will be a reminder to them: we cant go bomb and kill and occupy as we please. there are people there with dignity and hearts of lions that will kick our high tech lily asses back to our funny little country of low quality ice cream

[Bereta_Eder]

but the role of the invaders and occupiers in destabilizing this country is dire. all the people killed, all the movements emerging and bombing...

this struggle for power rarely was more straighforward and crude (no offence to cruddy) and at least there's hope that this are signs of collapse of the american reach.

[Verto]

and yeah the more resistance there is
a)it's good 'cause it drives occupiers and murderers away and opens the way for people to take their own fate and country in their own hands
b) it will disuade america from trying anything else in the near future. this will be a reminder to them: we cant go bomb and kill and occupy as we please. there are people there with dignity and hearts of lions that will kick our high tech lily asses back to our funny little country of low quality ice cream

People with dignity and hearts of lions that are kidnapping and beheading? America would be out of Iraq, or far closer to it, if it wasn't for the terrorists entering the country, using Iraq as an excuse to fight the Great Satan.