The foundation of modern christianity

[Ben Kenobi]

To clarify, that was Pax Africanus' question not mine.

The two points converge, so apologies. I just wanted to show how your thought also pertained to the question posed by the threadstarter.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Pekka
Of course none of us live like Jesus taught us. It's a guidline, not blueprints to follow step by step. We can sin because according to our religion he died for our sins so you know.. I can check out all the outrageous porn and feel good about it too, swear, cheat and still get in.

There's no need for a complicated rulebook. Just treat other human beings as your brothers and sisters, remember that God is your Father, and you'll be fine.

[Pekka]

Caligastia that's what I think too. The most important rule of them all is to not hurt people but if you live in ways that doesn't hurt anyone, then you're pretty decent person. And if you sometimes help someone, then you're a good person. And of course remembering who the boss is . Outside that... pretty much everything goes IMO. If it doesn't hurt anyone, then it should be ok.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi




Are these terms synonymous? Or are you using the two to mean different things?

What do you mean by the term catholic?

By Catholic, I mean the church that has been filled with corruption, a church that allowed men like Leo X to become their pope.

Where is there any record of God withdrawing this authority from the priesthood? Did not Christ say that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church?

And Daniel said the devil made war with the saints, and prevailed against them.

But the gates of hell did not prevail against His Church. It is like saying Satan prevailed over God and Christ when Jeruselem was captured during the Old Testament, or that death prevailed over Christ. Neither was true.

There are also many verses in the Bible that speak concerning an apostasy.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Pekka
Caligastia that's what I think too. The most important rule of them all is to not hurt people but if you live in ways that doesn't hurt anyone, then you're pretty decent person. And if you sometimes help someone, then you're a good person. And of course remembering who the boss is . Outside that... pretty much everything goes IMO. If it doesn't hurt anyone, then it should be ok.

Another important thing to remember is to try and do what you can to help others. It's hard though. You have to walk the fine line between helping others and being taken advantage of for it.

[Pekka]

Caligastia, that's true too. And remembering that sometimes not taking action doesn't equal not hurting anyone. I don't mean Iraq with this. I mean that if you see someone suffering outside your door, you are not hurting anyone if you don't open the door for this person but there's an opportunity to help and if it's not too much trouble you should do that. At least every now and then.

[Ben Kenobi]

It is like saying Satan prevailed over God and Christ when Jeruselem was captured during the Old Testament, or that death prevailed over Christ. Neither was true.

Remember Christ praying about the cup that he was to drink? Christ knew that he would be killed, in order to fulfill the prophecies, and the plan that God had established. Afterwards Christ resurrected.

Secondly, when Jerusalem fell, look at all the OT prophets who foresaw their destruction as Israel had become more wicked than all the other nations around them. Thus, even though Jerusalem fell, God did not withdraw all his promises to the nation of Israel. Rather, he preserved them, even as he punished them, in sustaining them during the Exile.

many verses in the Bible that speak concerning an apostasy.

Well, list them please, and see if any of them have to do with the total apostasy of his church.

I mean the church that has been filled with corruption, a church that allowed men like Leo X to become their pope.

But not catholic as in universal?

As for the conduct of the popes, can you properly say that Joseph Smith was perfect, as Christ was perfect?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Pekka
Caligastia, that's true too. And remembering that sometimes not taking action doesn't equal not hurting anyone. I don't mean Iraq with this. I mean that if you see someone suffering outside your door, you are not hurting anyone if you don't open the door for this person but there's an opportunity to help and if it's not too much trouble you should do that. At least every now and then.

Yep

In a perfect world we could help others without hesitation, but reality dictates caution.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Remember Christ praying about the cup that he was to drink? Christ knew that he would be killed, in order to fulfill the prophecies, and the plan that God had established. Afterwards Christ resurrected.

Secondly, when Jerusalem fell, look at all the OT prophets who foresaw their destruction as Israel had become more wicked than all the other nations around them. Thus, even though Jerusalem fell, God did not withdraw all his promises to the nation of Israel. Rather, he preserved them, even as he punished them, in sustaining them during the Exodus.

Exactly.

Well, list them please, and see if any of them have to do with the total apostasy of his church.

It is almost certain you will disagree that these verses speak of a total apostasy of the church, but here are a few.

Amos 8:11-12

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

Acts 20:28-30

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

2 Timothy 3:1-5

1 THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

But not catholic as in universal?

As for the conduct of the popes, can you properly say that Joseph Smith was perfect, as Christ was perfect?

Of course not. But since no man can be truly perfect, does that mean we do not need to strive for righteousness, or that those expected to be leaders in Christ's church need not at least try to avoid vice?

[Ben Kenobi]

I have to go.

Might be some time until I have a chance to reply.

[Ben Kenobi]

Of course not. But since no man can be truly perfect, does that mean we do not need to strive for righteousness, or that those expected to be leaders in Christ's church need not at least try to avoid vice?

Then why do you condemn Leo X for being less than perfect, and extoll Joseph Smith for the same sins?

I agree that the Christian leaders in the church ought to be morally upstanding, but this does not always happen. Does this mean that all of the baptisms he performs are invalid while he is in a state of sin?

[Verto]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Then why do you condemn Leo X for being less than perfect, and extoll Joseph Smith for the same sins?

Leo X was not just less than perfect; his, shall we say "wild" parties bankrupted the papacy, resulting in indulgences.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

I agree with the threadstarter, that this is a wrong turn for Christianity, but where I disagree is that the church is irredeemeably corrupt. The religion is no more false, because of the errors of those conducting the church, than the sacraments are no longer effective because of the sins of the priest. The religion is still true, the sacraments are still efficacious in spite of the state of the church.

The reason we can say this is that the true authority of the church must always rest on Christ himself, and not on the organisational body associated with Christ. The church that goes astray usually acknowledges a seperate authority from Christ, whether it be the state, or some other body.

You don't really agree with me. I'm saying that if the base of all western religion is corrupt at the starting point then all restorations of the base and all reformations of the base are tainted by man. The only way to correct this would be to somehow go back to before before. TO go back to before Constantine legalized christianity as a minimum.

[Aeson]

If there was something to 'corrupt' in Christianity (meaning the assumption that God exists and Jesus is the Christ), then it would be a rather simple thing for God to purify or restart the religion by giving further revelation or inspiration as to how to cleans or return to the purity that was there before it was corrupted. In that sense, you could make a case for Joseph Smith, or Martin Luther, or just about anyone who claims God talks to them, starts a religion, or makes reformations to an existing one.

[Dr Strangelove]

I seem to recall the LDS broadcasting advertisements offering to send viewers free copies of the Bible. I was under the impression that the version they send out is one of the more widely accepted versions like the King James or the Standard. Am I wrong?

The Episcopalian viewpoint on the meaning of the "Catholic" church is that all Christians are members. We believe that the Catholic church is spiritual not structural. The word catholic means universal afterall.