The foundation of modern christianity

[Caligastia]

Yaaay Islam!

[Ben Kenobi]

Does ANY so-called-christian actually do what Jesus says in the bible?

-Jam

All have sinned and fallen short of the law.

Redemption cannot be obtain by our works, but desires.

[Ben Kenobi]

The LDS do not consider themselves descended from or linked to the Catholic Church. Therefore, no.

Then how can they be Christian? Surely the Catholic church has some elements of Christianity, even if you believe they have since become corrupt.

All this is saying is that the only Christians are those who are members of the LDS.

[Ben Kenobi]

Was he perfect or without sin or as close to perfect/without sin as possible.

He is the Passover lamb without blemish. He is without as much sin as possible not because he is man, but because he is both man and God.

This allows him to suffer the same temptations that we do, but also to resist them.

I'm no authority but I was under the impression that jesus had moments of doubt and that he often prayed to god for guidance.

Doubt is not sinful.

He probably also passed gas, had bowel movements, did not have access to rightguard which would cause him to seem less than perfect.

Again, none of these have anything to do with sin.

[Ben Kenobi]

Thinking of something or entertaining it (regardless of how trivial the difference between the two) does not make one a sinner, doing it makes. I find this approach more reasonable and sensible.

Anacyreon:

Can one sin by not doing what one ought to be doing, by omission as well as commission?

By ignoring the connection between thought and action, one neglects an important element of sin. Sin is purposefully done. The will must be involved in order for sin to be involved. By saying that one need only do the wrong action, you condemn those who do so inadvertently.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Then how can they be Christian? Surely the Catholic church has some elements of Christianity, even if you believe they have since become corrupt.

Same way you can be human without decending from my parents. My parents have elements of humanity (pretty much all of them ), but it doesn't mean all humans came from them.

[Ben Kenobi]

So when did a 'Catholic' church come into being?

[Verto]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Then how can they be Christian? Surely the Catholic church has some elements of Christianity, even if you believe they have since become corrupt.

All this is saying is that the only Christians are those who are members of the LDS.

Yes, the Catholic Church does have many elements of christianity; so do Protestant churches. This is saying that the LDS church does not consider itself a reformed descendent of the Catholic Church. It is our belief that a reformation was not enough; a Restoration was necessary to fully restore the church set up by Christ.

[Ben Kenobi]

It is our belief that a reformation was not enough; a Restoration was necessary to fully restore the church set up by Christ.

Yet:

the Catholic Church does have many elements of christianity

If the Catholic church has many elements of Christianity, and more than a Reformation, but rather a restoration must be done, in what way does this deny a heritage to the Catholic church?

My own church believes precisely as you do, in critiquing the reformers for falling into the same errors as the Catholics. Yet, it is still possible to acknowledge the existence of a Catholic church from the very beginning. One could say that in restoring, you make a truly Catholic church by restoring the ideals of Christianity, held by the Catholic church initially, but deviated from in later years.

[Aeson]

Well, here's what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm

The combination "the Catholic Church" (he katholike ekklesia) is found for the first time in the letter of St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, written about the year 110. The words run: "Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus may be, there is the universal [katholike] Church." However, in view of the context, some difference of opinion prevails as to the precise connotation of the italicized word, and Kattenbusch, the Protestant professor of theology at Giessen, is prepared to interpret this earliest appearance of the phrase in the sense of mia mone, the "one and only" Church [Das apostolische Symbolum (1900), II, 922].

So the first reference to the term (which probably didn't signify an actual name of an organization given the context) was in 110AD.

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In the context of this thread 313AD when Constantine declared Christianity to be a legal religion.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi One could say that in restoring, you make a truly Catholic church by restoring the ideals of Christianity, held by the Catholic church initially, but deviated from in later years.

This is what we believe, although not that we are the true 'Catholic Church'. Following the death of the Apostles, Christ's church began being corrupted as the converted followers slowly began reintroducing their previous customs and traditions, as scripture was lost, corrupted and/or misinterpreted. These changes resulted in what we call the Great Apostasy, in which the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth. In Acts 20, Paul says

“I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

“Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them”

The churches that formed taught parts of Christ's teachings, and had a 'form of godliness', but were not the one true church Christ established.

Christ's original church was restored by Joseph Smith, according to our belief, with the keys of the priesthood returned to the earth.

[Ben Kenobi]

My question is would'nt this pervision of christianity make all christian religions corrupt and false religions?

Edit: Posted by the threadstarter, but applicable to Aeson's last post.

Aeson:

You touch on a good issue. The main bone of contention for Mennonites and many of the groups derived from the anabaptists is over this conjunction of the state and church, shared by both the Reformers and the Catholic church.

I agree with the threadstarter, that this is a wrong turn for Christianity, but where I disagree is that the church is irredeemeably corrupt. The religion is no more false, because of the errors of those conducting the church, than the sacraments are no longer effective because of the sins of the priest. The religion is still true, the sacraments are still efficacious in spite of the state of the church.

The reason we can say this is that the true authority of the church must always rest on Christ himself, and not on the organisational body associated with Christ. The church that goes astray usually acknowledges a seperate authority from Christ, whether it be the state, or some other body.

[Pekka]

Of course none of us live like Jesus taught us. It's a guidline, not blueprints to follow step by step. We can sin because according to our religion he died for our sins so you know.. I can check out all the outrageous porn and feel good about it too, swear, cheat and still get in. And he went all kinds of painful things and died for us sinners, so he didn't die for nothing and you know it would be a shame if you lived perfectly because then he died for .. well nothing in your part, just for the rest of us.

But just follow the guidelines and you might get off the track but get back on it and continue on it and everything will be fine. It's a test what you want and who you choose when it's all over, you get to taste the forbidden stuff too so you can be objective and choose like you want to. Free will. How can you choose not to join him if you have never experienced the nasty? That would be just stupid, you have to be able to put some weight on things and consider your options so what you choose is genuine and is your own choice.

[Aeson]

To clarify, that was Pax Africanus' question not mine.

[Ben Kenobi]

This is what we believe, although not that we are the true 'Catholic Church'.

not the one true church Christ established.

Are these terms synonymous? Or are you using the two to mean different things?

What do you mean by the term catholic?

in which the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth.

Where is there any record of God withdrawing this authority from the priesthood? Did not Christ say that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church?