The foundation of modern christianity

[Jamski]

There are no churchs that were not affected by him.

-Jam

[East Street Trader]

Originally posted by Caligastia


God cares about our desire to know him

That is one of the things which put me off Christianity.

I very much like and admire the Christian ethic and I am inspired by the story of Jesus. But I cannot help thinking that a God who creates the universe for the purpose of peopling a part of it with thinking, feeling creatures of whom he demands love is rather pathetic.

When He goes on to give these people free will but to judge them harshly if they fail to employ it to elect to love Him he is acting in a way which seems downright petulant.

I certainly can't reconcile this with a perfect being. Wanting the love of his creation demonstrates an unmet need.

I just finished "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time" (a good read) and the parents (of an autistic child) in that make no demand on their son that he love them. Nor do they judge him for being unable to do so. And I would think pretty ill of them if they made any such demand.

Of course if I had faith I would just say to myself that it is not surprising to find that God cannot be understood by thinking of Him as a though he is a human being. Lacking faith, though, I am put off a God who acts in a way I would think naff if I did it myself.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
If the mormons are worshipping the same Jesus of nazareth that was in the bible. If the mormons believe in the bible as a religous text then they are an offshoot of roman catholicism.

The Roman Catholic Church did not author the books of the Old Testament, or the New Testament, nor compile them into a Bible.

They accept a version that was given to Joseph Smith through revelation. That version is the original word that existed before Roman Catholicism.

Our official version of the Bible is the King James Verson; the Joseph Smith Translation is placed in the footnotes, or for longer verses, placed in it's own section, with the Bible Dictionary and Index. The JST is not the official translation, since Joseph Smith was killed before he completed it.

According to your statements the mormons believe in the same god that Jews, Christians, and muslims believe. Even if it is their belief that there version of religion is prior to the RC influence that does not make it tru. half the proof that there are exposed to RC is in there name. Later day SAINTS

As someone mentioned, the Catholic Church did not create the term Saint, nor did it create Christianity. Therefore, your argument that any church based on Christ had to come from the Catholic Church is wrong.

[Cruddy]

It could be argued that all Christian forms of worship go back to St Paul, in the sense that he took it to the gentiles and made it OK for them to believe in Jesus.

Needless to say, the believers who had actually known Christ on earth were a bit miffed with him for enlarging the club.

Given the historical obliteration of the Jews that Believed Jesus was the Messiah, he did the right thing...

...or was that the Nestorian heresy? Are their still Christians today who insist that circumcision ("the Covenant with God") is necessary to be a Christian?

[Alexander's Horse]

Saint Paul has a lot to answer for

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by East Street Trader


That is one of the things which put me off Christianity.

I very much like and admire the Christian ethic and I am inspired by the story of Jesus. But I cannot help thinking that a God who creates the universe for the purpose of peopling a part of it with thinking, feeling creatures of whom he demands love is rather pathetic.

When He goes on to give these people free will but to judge them harshly if they fail to employ it to elect to love Him he is acting in a way which seems downright petulant.

I certainly can't reconcile this with a perfect being. Wanting the love of his creation demonstrates an unmet need.

I just finished "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time" (a good read) and the parents (of an autistic child) in that make no demand on their son that he love them. Nor do they judge him for being unable to do so. And I would think pretty ill of them if they made any such demand.

Of course if I had faith I would just say to myself that it is not surprising to find that God cannot be understood by thinking of Him as a though he is a human being. Lacking faith, though, I am put off a God who acts in a way I would think naff if I did it myself.

I see what you're saying, and understand why you would feel that way given the limited information about God that Christianity has to offer.

Here is what I believe:

The problem with Christianity is that it's too simplified. Christianity says that either you do God's will or BAM! - eternal suffering. Conversely if you do do God's will BAM! - eternal bliss.

Our spiritual journey towards God does not end with mortal death. There is a lot more for us to learn before we can even stand in God's presence. A spiritual career so fulfilling that we can't even begin to imagine awaits us. God's creation consists of a lot more than just heaven and earth. As we ascend and grow through the ages we get to experience an enormous range of God's creation.

Our best concept of God is that of a loving Father. You're right to be put off by a concept of a God who acts in a way that you would think naff if you acted that way yourself. Would a loving Father ever condemn one of his children to eternal suffering? Of course not! God gives us many many opportunities to redeem ourselves when we fail him. God doesn't punish us, we effectively punish ourselves when we stray from the plan he has for us because we miss out on so many good things. It's not that God makes selfish demands of us - he gives us fantastic opportunities, and it's up to us to decide if we wish to take advantage of those opportunities.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Jamski
There are no churchs that were not affected by him.

-Jam

by affected I meant ones he influenced (like the RC), not the ones he persecuted

if you mean otherwise you are talking BS

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Caligastia



The problem with Christianity is that it's too simplified. Christianity says that either you do God's will or BAM! - eternal suffering. Conversely if you do do God's will BAM! - eternal bliss.

no it doesn't

Jon Miller

[East Street Trader]

Thank you for that, Caligastia.

I will chew on what you say.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


no it doesn't

Yes it does.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by East Street Trader
Thank you for that, Caligastia.

I will chew on what you say.

You're welcome. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

[Jamski]

by affected I meant ones he influenced (like the RC), not the ones he persecuted

if you mean otherwise you are talking BS

Jon Miller

At the time there was only one church. And that became the RC church because of Constantine (hence the Roman part of RC)

The Arian heresy came 100 years later, and was eventually completely eradicated, and the split into Catholic and Orthodox was not to happen for many more centuries.

So take your BS accusations back, and apologise, please.

-Jam

[Jon Miller]

nope

there were other churchs which had already split off

I was not refering to the Orthodox/Catholic split

Jon Miller

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
Most Christians do what Jesus says. He says to accept the fact that you are a sinner, try not to sin and ask for forgiveness for said sins. You do not have to stop sinning.

wrong. That is a false teaching in many churches. We do have to stop sinning. If you ask forgiveness but keep sinning, then you obviously did not really mean it. Christians are called to true repentance, where you ask for forgiveness, and then abstain from that sin forever.

[East Street Trader]

I think what is being said, the diplomat, is that the Christian church believes there has only ever been one perfect human being - Jesus. All the rest of us are created imperfect. But happily that alone does not condemn us in the eyes of the Christian God.

So if you repent, try to do better, but your imperfection brings you low again, you do not have to despair.

You repent again and try hard all over again.

No doubt God is particularly pleased if there are some hardy souls who manage to abstain from sin forever. But he is soft hearted enough to rejoice each time a sinner repents - whether they manage the "abstain for ever" bit thereafter or not

Quite why the question as to whether a soul is in a state of grace at just exactly the moment the person dies is so important I do not know. That seems to reduce matters to the level of a lottery. One mght have expected that if the person had managed nearly a lifetime in a state of grace and then just some small slip right at the end God might have been more pleased than if they had lived immersed in sin for the vast majority of their life but had the luck to repent just for a little while immediately before death.

But someone more knowledgeable than I can no doubt explain that.