Comrade Tassadar, Verto... Wtf is this all about?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by JohnT
Conversely, isn't it a little perverted that the Jews are so wigged thinking that if another church baptised their dead kin it would somehow void an earlier contract made with the very same diety?

I'm sure it conjures up memoreis of forced/secret convertions and stolen chilren and such that the Jews had to face for millenia from Christians. And now even their dead aren't safe from Christians. I would be pissed. I can completely understand why its offensive, though as an atheist, I think it's meaningless.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
No, you're here to have hissy fit over a harmless ceremony that doesn't really do anything to the supposedly aggrieved parties.

The aggreived parties are the living relatives and members of other religions.

[Nylan-Nolan]

Read Verto's explanation of your post-life options pertaining to the baptisms, you dolt. If you don't want to join our church after death, you don't have to. The baptism just provides an opportunity if you want to. It's totally optional.

[OzzyKP]

I'm sure it conjures up memoreis of forced/secret convertions and stolen chilren and such that the Jews had to face for millenia from Christians. And now even their dead aren't safe from Christians. I would be pissed. I can completely understand why its offensive, though as an atheist, I think it's meaningless.

First of all LDS aren't Christian. I went to Salt Lake, and they didn't even identify themselves as Christian really.

Also, how can someone really force you to convert? You believe what you believe, and thankfully no one is yet able to tinker with or even see what you are thinking. IF someone pointed a gun to my head and said become a Muslim or else I could just say "uhh, sure I'm a Muslim" but if I don't believe, then I really haven't converted anything.

And after someone is dead.... who cares?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The aggreived parties are the living relatives and members of other religions.

I know, and it applies to them. Christian groups pray for the dead all the time--even non-Christians, and by name. How is this different?

Remember that to the Mormons it's not remotely coerced--the dead soul is given a choice in the afterlife.

[Nubclear]

But, again, its disrespectful.
This is the "heavenly" equal to having a Mormon come to your house to ask you if you want to be a part of the Church

First of all LDS aren't Christian. I went to Salt Lake, and they didn't even identify themselves as Christian really.

Um.....
Mormons are christian

[Boris Godunov]

No, it isn't, because they're not knocking on anyone's door or disturbing anyone's lunch. They don't involve anyone from the family. It's no different from anyone else praying for the souls of the dead. It's completely irrelevent to reality.

[Ben Kenobi]

And what about people who never had an opportunity to hear Christian teaching before they died?

Waited for this response.

Have you not read Romans 4?


Abraham Justified by Faith

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead--since he was about a hundred years old--and that Sarah's womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.

This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

.................................................. ...............................

All those who believe that God has the power to do what he promises will go to heaven, even if they lack the gift of Christ's atonement for sin. For God saves those who trust in him, just as he did Abraham who knew neither the Law, nor Christ.

But we are different, we have Christ, and the Law which points to Christ, so if we hear of either, we have a choice. Either we can accept the sacrifice of Christ, or we can reject him.

For those who have not heard of Christ, even in this day and age, God will not hold that against them, in his mercy. He has placed within everyone the capacity to know right from wrong, and will gage people based on their lives that they live, just as he did with Abraham.

Therefore, it is not necessary to baptise those who are already dead, for God can still draw them into heaven. In baptising the dead, you show your lack of faith in the power of God, to save those whom he will save.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's totally optional.

Eh?

The person who is dead no longer has the choice of being baptised or not.

What does baptism mean to you? To me, all those who are baptised are members of the body of Christ, they have made a commitment to Christ.

[Ben Kenobi]

Christian groups pray for the dead all the time--even non-Christians, and by name. How is this different?

Only the Catholic church prays to the dead, and in this case, they pray for the Saints, who have died in the Lord. They do not pray for the unbelievers, because they know that you do not get a second chance after you die.

They may mourn for the death of unbelievers, that they will not be there with them in heaven, but they do not pray to God for their forgiveness after they die.

[Ben Kenobi]

Mormons are christian

One question for Verto, and the other Mormons.

Is Christ the Son of the Living God, who came to Earth, taking upon a human nature in addition to his divine nature? Is he fully human and fully divine?

[Jon Miller]

that's not the only question to determine whether one is Christian


JM

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The person who is dead no longer has the choice of being baptised or not.

What does baptism mean to you? To me, all those who are baptised are members of the body of Christ, they have made a commitment to Christ.

The deceased has, according to their doctrine, the option of accepting the baptism in the afterlife. A baptism means nothing without the consent of the baptisee. If someone were dragged kicking and screaming to a river and forcibly baptised, would you give that baptism any weight? I sure wouldn't.

But regardless, if you're a Christian, it won't matter, because you've already accepted Christ and are part of his body.

If you're of another faith or no faith, you don't believe the baptism has any effect at all.

What's the problem? And remember, they're not actually baptizing the dead... it's a symbolic baptism. No real dead people were harmed in the making of this baptism.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
But, again, its disrespectful.

So what?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Only the Catholic church prays to the dead, and in this case, they pray for the Saints, who have died in the Lord.

Bull****. I've been to plenty of church services of several denominations where they have said prayers for the souls of the departed. At an Episcopalian church, all you had to do was write someone's name in a book before the service, and the minister would then pray for that person's soul in the service. Hell, every funeral I've been to has included a prayer for the soul of the deceased.