Start of Civil War? Attacks Across Iraq!

[Tripledoc]

Supporter of War and Supporter of Occupation is the same thing. Don't spin it.

The way I see it the danger of civil war between Shi'a and Sunni has been vastly overstated. New York Times says that shi'a and sunni are now (have always been?)working closely together militarily and politically.

The effectiveness of the reconstruction efforts have been very inneffective so far, too few people with pure intentions and too much corruption, and too many adventurers.

So that leaves only one reason, and that is the installment of Democracy, which means the installment of a foreign based pro US puppet government. The people of Iraq apparently don't want that.

One can only wonder why the media have been so complacent in their rosy view of things.

I can't tell the US what they should do, but I want the Danish contingent out now. They would do a better job in Afghanistan or Africa.

[Drake Tungsten]

Terrorists have ****ed with the wrong people now!

Taking Japanese and South Korean hostages now? I hate to break it to all you Arab hotheads out there, but when it comes to an insanity contest, the East Asians have your asses beat. I'm not sure this is a fight you really want...

Japanese, Koreans taken hostage

(CNN) -- Three Japanese citizens and seven South Korean civilians have been taken hostage in Iraq, where fighting between insurgents and coalition troops has escalated in recent days.

Also, Iranian TV is airing footage of two Arab residents of Jerusalem, reportedly kidnapped in Iraq, and the British government is hunting down a citizen who has been missing since Monday.

The Arabic-language news channel Al-Jazeera Thursday aired video showing three kidnapped Japanese citizens in Iraq.

A previously unknown group calling itself the Mujahedeen Squadrons issued a statement saying the three would be burned alive unless Japan pulled its troops from Iraq.

There are conflicting reports about the occupations of those being held. There is at least one journalist among them. Japanese media reports say one is a non-government worker and the other is an aid worker.

They were shown with knives held to their throats in the video, and were sometimes blindfolded.

The Japanese government is meeting in a crisis session. An official, Yasuo Fukuda, said the government is trying to confirm the report, but noted that there is no reason for self-defense forces to withdraw from Iraq.

"If those innocent people were taken hostage, it would be unforgiveable and we will feel very strong anger and we demand their immediate release," Fukuda said.

"We will do our utmost for those people to be released unharmed."

The names of the three -- seen on passports in news footage are Koriyama Soichiro, who has a press card issued in Jordan for Weekly Asahi, and Imai Noriaki -- both males. The third is a woman, Takato Nahoko.

South Korea's Foreign Ministry confirmed that seven South Korean civilians have been abducted.

The Foreign Ministry confirmed that eight pastors were on a missionary trip to Iraq.

They were in two jeeps when they were stopped by armed guards at a checkpoint about an hour and a half outside of Baghdad.

A pastor who escaped reported this to the Korean ambassador to Iraq a short while ago.

The South Korean Embassy is attempting to find out who took the missionaries and where they are being held, and have asked for the help of the U.S. military in Iraq.

MBC, one of the local TV stations in Seoul, aired an interview with a woman who said she was one of the eight who were stopped at a checkpoint while on their way into Baghdad.

She said while she was able to get away, the rest of her party were taken by the Iraqis.

The British Foreign Office said Thursday one of its civilians is missing.

The man, Gary Teeley, was in Nasiriya before he disappeared, a spokesman with the British Foreign Office said.

Officials did not say whether they believe Teeley was kidnapped.

His family has been contacted. The office said they were made aware that he was missing on Monday. The Foreign Office is working with the coalition to find Teeley.

Israeli media reported Thursday that two Arab residents of Jerusalem were kidnapped in Iraq.

Israeli government and Foreign Ministry officials did not immediately comment.

Media sources identified the two as George Yakoub Asuk and Nabil Marzuk, residents of Jerusalem's Old City Christian Quarter.

According to Israeli media, Iranian television broadcast footage of the two, along with identifying documents.

Haaretz, the Israeli daily, said the Iranian report showed "two identity cards, a Maccabi HMO card, an Israeli driver's license and a supermarket chain discount card."

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/08/iraq.missing/index.html

[Tripledoc]

It is stupid to send missionaries to Iraq. Mossad agents are not welcome either apparently.

And Drake, saying that Asians are just as fanatic as Muslim fundamentalists is a racist statement btw.

[GePap]

Death to all Grammar Nazii!

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
Al-jazeera have some interesting pictures from Falluja. Apparently 8 women and 16 children were killed in the initial fighting. There is a photo-series of dead Iraqi children and babies. Supporters of the war should take a view.

That's what happens when combatants hide among civilians.

Of course, one could consider the Hussein government's actions in Kurdish and Shiite parts of Iraq, or arab terrorist actions in general, and attempt to discern how much of a flying **** they give about inflicting civilian casualties, but I don't want to interject a little reality and detract from the point you're trying to make.

BTW, awful convenient to have those women and kids all nice in a line for the photographers. Wonder how far they had to be dragged from?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MOBIUS


...that is the final excuse the US could use for kicking Saddam out...

And when the liberator becomes the oppressor you've gone full circle!

You're absolutely right. We should apologize, return Saddam Hussein to power, and leave forthwith.

[Arrian]

Supporter of War and Supporter of Occupation is the same thing. Don't spin it.

Actually, no, it's not necessarily the same thing. There can be supporters of the war who wanted to just topple Saddam and leave, and there are definitely people who didn't want the war to happen but now think the "coalition" must stick around until the new government can keep order itself.

I was nitpicking, not spinning.

-Arrian

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
BTW, awful convenient to have those women and kids all nice in a line for the photographers. Wonder how far they had to be dragged from?

They would have to be "dragged" from the place where they were gunned down to the hospital. Is there anything strange in that?

Do you think that arabs simply leave their dead to rot in the streets or fields or what?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
No I don't care if you have armed insurgents in a mosque - you just don't bomb it in a country like Iraq!

Sure, you just let them know that "Hey, you can turn that Mosque into a headquarters and shoot at us from it, and we'll let you, cuz we're the nice guys."

No wonder the UK has declined from being a major world power to being the lapdog of one.

Sure you may kill a bunched of insurgents - but how many MORE are going to sign up just because of this!!?

Not a lot - certainly not more than we can also kill in short order. If the Iraqis don't like it, then don't let armed insurgents misuse mosques as paramilitary facilities. What next, set up AAA and SAM positions from the minarets and put artillery in the grounds?

This is sheer stupidity on a grand scale and the US has played into the insurgents hands!

I'm glad one bomb near a mosque has given you so much to get excited over.

The area should have been locked down and cordoned off and handed over to Iraqi security troops with US supervision.

And in the hours it would take to accomplish this, the Iraqi insurgents would happily cooperate. And the Iraqi security troops would be in sufficient numbers and be sufficiently trained.

Religious leaders of the mosque could have helped in getting the men inside to surrender - or deal with it Iraqi to Iraqi...

Or they could have done nothing, because in your world, you ask people nicely and that's it.

But no, let's do Overkill US stylee...

BIG F*CKING MISTAKE!

You guys don't get it, the more brutal you are - the more resistance you are going to get! It is that simple!

But then again, this whole mission is just a revenge attack anyway cos a bunch of mercs got toasted...

You've never seen the US go in for overkill or be particularly brutal.

[DinoDoc]

You enjoy poping posters bubbles of self-delusion don't you?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
They would have to be "dragged" from the place where they were gunned down to the hospital. Is there anything strange in that?

The point being that it's then not really possible to tell who "gunned them down" or how, or whether they were in one area, or dragged from all over the place to be photographed for a sympathy show.

Do you think that arabs simply leave their dead to rot in the streets or fields or what?

They sure did in the first Gulf War.

If you wanted to have "realistic" and accurate journalism, it would seem better to film them where they fell, in context. But there's more drama just gathering them up from wherever to put them in a single video.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
You enjoy poping posters bubbles of self-delusion don't you?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Dr. Stiby
I was just wondering.. Would the US have pulled off the same kind of response if the mutilated bodies were not of American contractors, but rather like South Africans or something?

Fallujah has been a pain in the ass for a long time, and is full of Saddamites, so my only real surprise is why we took so long. Much earlier on, I advocated taking two full divisions of troops, locking the entire city down and disarming it completely beyond what the Iraqi people are allowed under current law for self-protection.

[GePap]

The main problem is that the longer this mess in the South goes on, as we get closer to the admins' "deadline", the more other groups will come to see that, given the weakenss of Iraqi security forces and hence of the Iraqi interim government, the more sense it makes to provide their own security through their own militias. And at that point in June we come up to the magic question-if the new Iraqi government has no functioning security forces, and sees its survival hwole porvided by foreign troops, what legitimacy does it have-and if Iraqis beghin to work to get rid of them, will the US stand aside and let a government seen as illegitimate fall, or will it fight for a government not backed by Iraqis in the name of Iraqi democracy?

[Chemical Ollie]

Michael, you said yourself some days ago that "War is political and strategical, battle is tactical", and I agree. But don't you think that bombing a Mosque fits perfectly into that wisdom? Winning one battle by acting like *******s can make you lose the whole war, politically.

The mission must not be to "kill the enemy at any cost" but to "liberate Iraq", right?.