Start of Civil War? Attacks Across Iraq!

[Dr. Stiby]

I was just wondering.. Would the US have pulled off the same kind of response if the mutilated bodies were not of American contractors, but rather like South Africans or something?

[DanS]

I was just wondering.. Would the US have pulled off the same kind of response if the mutilated bodies were not of American contractors, but rather like South Africans or something?

I'm guessing yes. We (at least the public) didn't know that they were American contractors until a day or two after the event. By then, the challenge to US authority did not appear to rest on the nationality of the contractors.

It appears that the American military and public have learned a lot from Mogadishu.

[MOBIUS]

So you're giving me **** and agreeing with me at the same time...

Edit: Reply to Arrian

[Agathon]

Yeah Arrian, that is funny.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DanS


I'm guessing yes. We (at least the public) didn't know that they were American contractors until a day or two after the event. By then, the challenge to US authority did not appear to rest on the nationality of the contractors.

It appears that the American military and public have learned a lot from Mogadishu.

No. The fact they were Americans was a HUGE part of the emotional response in the US. If they had been from another country, or say, Iraqi police, no, the US public would not have cared. The Occupation authorities would have to react strongly whatever nationality they were, but the response would still not have been as large.

[DanS]

The fact they were Americans was a HUGE part of the emotional response in the US.

Well, I must not have been talking to the people you were, because that is not my perception.

But anyway, if they were Iraqi, I agree that Americans would not have cared very much. Maybe a little shocked. On the other hand, they probably would have cared a lot if 4 South Africans were killed and their bodies mutilated. Of course, there's a context here.

[GePap]

If they were not Americans, the stream of "relatives mourn, relatives remember" stories would not have abounded. People would have been schoked specifically if they were western foreigners, but if not Americans, it would not get the same reaction from the US-just as the death of non-American servicemembers of the coalition forces don;t get the same response as dead G.I.s.

[DanS]

Possible. I don't deal in certainties like you do.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DanS
Possible. I don't deal in certainties like you do.

yes you do..right there was one.

[Dr Strangelove]

I just read that they're sending a Kurdish special forces group into Fallujah. What a great idea! Next they should send in some southern Shiites.

Since suicide bombers have been disrupting the training of Iraqi police and army I wonder if the allies have considered moving the training bases to safer countries like Kuwait?

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Since suicide bombers have been disrupting the training of Iraqi police and army I wonder if the allies have considered moving the training bases to safer countries like Kuwait?

When Sen. Byrd says the following.

"$121 billion later [total occupation cost], and just 2,324 of the 78,224 Iraqi police are "fully qualified," according to the Pentagon. Nearly 60,000 of those same police officers have had no formal training -- none!"

Then I would say that there are entirely different reasons behind the lack of security in Iraq.

More disturbing is that Rumsfeld seems to believe that there are somewhere around 200.000 Iraqi police and armymen in Iraq, working for the CPA.

[Kropotkin]

On the issue of the importance of victims nationality:
A while back there was some resentment against the swedish prime minister for not attending the cermony to mourn the victims of the Madrid bombings. He was out shopping a new house and sent the deputy minister of finance instead (a loser).* Now, the Rwandian govt had a simular cermony for the ten year anniversary for the genocide of perhaps a million africans. That cermony didn't include scores of european heads of state did it?

On the other hand, whose so naive that they think that humans anywhere on the globe are equals? Everyone's equal but some are perhaps more equal than others. Sorry for taking up your time.


* Apparantly, the meeting was important according to a spanish minister -commenting on the swedish prime ministers abscence- important for building up a european identity. Always nice with people that use the death of others for political gains or goals.

[GePap]

One of the main porblems that have surfaced is that the Iraqi security forces are doing nothing anywhere to calm this-the operation in fallujah is alwayssold as Marines and Iraqi security forces-but I don;t ever here about the Iraqis doing anything-and they are certainly not fighting to gain control in the south.

So after months of working to put together Iraqi security forces, right now, there seem to be none working.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
When Sen. Byrd says the following.

"$121 billion later [total occupation cost], and just 2,324 of the 78,224 Iraqi police are "fully qualified," according to the Pentagon. Nearly 60,000 of those same police officers have had no formal training -- none!"

Then I would say that there are entirely different reasons behind the lack of security in Iraq.

More disturbing is that Rumsfeld seems to believe that there are somewhere around 200.000 Iraqi police and armymen in Iraq, working for the CPA.

Schroeder said long ago, that even though he won't send troops, Germany offers help with training of the Iraqi police and civil authorities. Arrogant fleering from across the Atlantic was the answer. Perhaps some short-sighted minds understand now, how useful it would have been to accept this offer.

[Ted Striker]

No oil for you Sir Ralph