Start of Civil War? Attacks Across Iraq!

[monkspider]

Holy hell, what's going on over there?

[monkspider]

More details....

"A Pentagon source has said up to 130 US troops have been killed in fierce fighting in Iraq
"The large scale battle, described as "intense", has taken place in the town of Ar Ramadi, 20 miles west of Fallujah.


Sky News' David Chater said: "None of this is official yet - none of it is confirmed."

But he added: "It sounds very much like this is being carried out by men who are militarily trained."

Chater described the attack as "highly sophisticated
"

[Dr Strangelove]

If Sunnis, Shiities, and Kurds were fighting it out it would be a civil war, but since Shiites are fighting the coalition it's more of a rebellion than a civil war.

[joncha]

Reuters is quoting 130 dead, too, but that includes Iraqis, since Sunday. The number of US soldiers killed in the same time frame is quoted at 19.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4766866

[monkspider]

Stay safe Oerdin.

[GePap]

OK, on the battle in Ramadi, the best figures out yet are 12, though that might go up.

That is distinct from the 19 who have died in all other incidents in Iraq since Saturday.

[Eli]

Originally posted by joncha
Reuters is quoting 130 dead, too, but that includes Iraqis, since Sunday. The number of US soldiers killed in the same time frame is quoted at 19.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=4766866

Yeah, it seems that Fox and Sky(the ones who were reporting 130 US dead) fixed their report and now the numbers are somewhere in the very low dozens.

[MOBIUS]

Well 31 US soldiers dead in 2-3 days is pretty much a disaster in itself - especially if this is just the beginning...

I saw footage of some of the US units being used, the humvee's looked like they were scraped together with just a piece of metal plate bolted to the side - overstretched anyone...?

Talking of casualties, are there any figures for Humvee 'KIA's'?

Seems to me that a whole ****load must've been destroyed by now...

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Well 31 US soldiers dead in 2-3 days is pretty much a disaster in itself - especially if this is just the beginning...

The good ol' Marines need to get a little heavier and a little less into that gung ho, frontal assault doctrine.

I saw footage of some of the US units being used, the humvee's looked like they were scraped together with just a piece of metal plate bolted to the side - overstretched anyone...?

Not overstretched, just undermanned. Six more divisions for the Army and one for the Marines, and we'll be set to kick all your asses.

Talking of casualties, are there any figures for Humvee 'KIA's'?

Seems to me that a whole ****load must've been destroyed by now...

We have extras. Besides, it's good for the economy.

[rev]

Regardless of the actual numbers, this is pure catastrophe. The post-war has gone from an insurgency to an uprising, and now we're looking at a quagmire.

MOBIUS: as for the Humvees, some of them are plated with scrap metal donated by the soldiers' hometown communities -- same with some of their personal armor. The Bush administration and a few Democrats decided it wasn't worth the money to hem the tax cuts in order to pay for adequate armor for the troops.

Bush's poll numbers in regard to his handling of Iraq and the war on terror have been plummeting over the past few weeks WITHOUT a 10-a-day rate of US soldiers dying. If this keeps up at all, he's toast in November.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by rev
Regardless of the actual numbers, this is pure catastrophe. The post-war has gone from an insurgency to an uprising, and now we're looking at a quagmire.

Quagmire, shmagmire. The "outies" or "I want it all" types in the new power structure finally decided to try to do something, but when cockroaches come out into the light, so much the easier to kill 'em all and solve the problem for good.

[Tripledoc]

Actually, if it had not been a political decision by the Bush Administration to substantially lower the amount of patrols in Iraq this might never have happened. Bush was worried that if the soldiers went beyond basepoint they might get shot at, and subsequently the casualty figures would be further stacked against him.

I also recall that the US army contingent was actually withdrawn from Baghdad a few months ago, and placed in camps around the city. This explains how Bagdhad has now effectively reverted to Iraqi control. And all the other cities too.

[The Mad Viking]

Well, if you are planning to pull out completely in a few months, shouldn't you gradually begin reducing control?

[Felch]

Not to diminish what I've never experienced, but in historical terms 31 dead is hardly a catastrophe. To me this situation seems to stem from the failure of the United States to adequately brutalize the hostile population.

Folks have this ludicrous notion that Muslims have a death wish. They don't. If they did, they wouldn't surrender. They're human beings, and even the most fanatical human beings enjoy living. If that weren't true we wouldn't have Gitmo chock full of Al Qaeda and Taliban, and we wouldn't have so many Iraqi P.O.W.s and the Israelis wouldn't have any Palestinian prisoners to exchange.

So what you do is you go to the mosque that this Al-Sadr guy is hiding at and you warn them to exit peacefully or else, and if they don't you blow it to hell. And if other people want to try to flex nuts elsewhere, you do the same thing.

I don't think it's okay to kill people indiscriminately, but we're in the situation where we have to. This is why war is wrong. But since we're in a war, we may as well do the best job of it we can.

Oh, and anybody who thinks that murdering civilians leads to problems down the line is welcome to show me how many American troops have been killed by Germans and Japanese angered by Dresden and Hiroshima. It doesn't. It's morally wrong, but it's effective.

Also I agree with MtG on the cockroaches coming out. This may be like the Tet offensive, where American forces were finally able to bring their power to bear in an effective way against the VC.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking
Well, if you are planning to pull out completely in a few months, shouldn't you gradually begin reducing control?

The US never had the plan of pulling out completely. they were to reduce the numbers from 125.000 to 100.000. These were supposed to stay for another 2 years.

But it seems that the military is now planning to put more troops into Iraq. At least they will have an excuse for doing so, if the US takes a substantial pounding. The political climate will allow escalation. This whole incedent has probably been carefully orchestrated.

Also the US will still have its largest Embassy in the world placed in Bagdhad. A fortress containing office space for 3000 employees.

The handing over of power is largely symbolic.