Re-establish Byzantium?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ancyrean

So your time frame is roughly 1400s-1770s by the latest (with some stretch). During this period, Europe saw many bloodbaths like 30 years war (a high point of religious intolerance among Christians, let alone towards other religions), inquisitions, pogroms for Jews, witch trials and what not. The chances of having a Muslim community in Europe was virtually nil, having a Jewish one was a dance with death.

To be fair to western europeans, there was real and steady toleration for Jews in the Dutch Republic from about 1600 on, and in England from roughly 1650 (thank THEE, Oliver Cromwell). Much of the rest of your post is well taken, and the Ottomans tolerance of the Jews in this period is notable, but at least wrt to the Jews the beginnings of Western enlightenment start well before the French Revolution, at least in Holland and England.

[Sava]

If the Greeks wanted to reclaim the city, I'd support it.

The Turks are evil. Just ask the Armenians.

[Elok]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
To be fair to western europeans, there was real and steady toleration for Jews in the Dutch Republic from about 1600 on, and in England from roughly 1650 (thank THEE, Oliver Cromwell). Much of the rest of your post is well taken, and the Ottomans tolerance of the Jews in this period is notable, but at least wrt to the Jews the beginnings of Western enlightenment start well before the French Revolution, at least in Holland and England.

Yay! At last we whities get Judged by Posterity Tolerance points! How many do we have to get before we can trade 'em in for the neato Political Correctness Justice Force membership ring?

Seriously though, suggesting that ideological flaws are the chief cause of all human misery is at least as naive as anything spewed out by the far right. The Turks might have been a wonderful example of light and unity in Ottoman times, but a few centuries earlier they were a bunch of nomadic Scythian barbarians distinct from the distantly related mongols only by their lack of team spirit and even lower standards of cleanliness. And the Muslim Caliphate that gave us algebra and lateen sails eventually degenerated into the whackos who bombed the WTC. And Mother Teresa's church is descended from the "pornocracy" of the late first milennium. Evidence dictates, to my eyes at least, that it's the individual participants of any given society that affects its nature, and the high-minded words they babble don't matter half as much as the extent and fashion by which they follow them.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Also taken from molly bloom's sayings no less

So would the people of Christian faith be better off in a Christian country?

Considering the peoples of the Morea revolted against the Venetians and helped the Turks retake the peninsula, I'd have to say they didn't think so. The taxes under the Ottomans were lighter, they weren't forced to serve in the military, and they were allowed to practice their own faith, instead of being forced to preform Latin rites. In the North, kings had to set up forts and patrols to stop serfs from fleeing to the Turkish lands (as well as try and stop Turkish raids.

[VetLegion]

Hi Ancyrean, it is very good thing to see a Turk on this fine forum
I hope you stick around.

[Ben Kenobi]

Indeed. Nice to get another perspective, poorly represented.

For a take on comparative cruelty,

That's an interesting approach, to excuse the actions of one nation based on those of other nations of the time. Do we not criticise the Christians for failing to adhere to the teachings of their own moral code they professed? If so, why should we play a different rule for the Turks?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Do we not criticise the Christians for failing to adhere to the teachings of their own moral code they professed?

No.

[Bereta_Eder]

Ancyrean,
at last someone recognized the brutal beyond belief Ottoman practice of snatching the babies from their mothers at regular intervals and encompassing a vast population of Christians.

I never said the Ottomans did it to "terrorize", they did it to bolster their units but the result was terror of the worst short.

However I see you fail to condemn it meaning that as it was not affecting the Ottomans themselves, it was alright.

I see a similar attitude concerning the denial of the Armenian genocide.

You know that the carricature that molly bloom in his frustration tried to pin me with is laughable, however I do find it disturbing this relunctance to facing up to old deeds. Some of them no so old at all.

I can't see how we are going to live peacefully if we simply choose to disregard the attrocities between eachother. Facing up to them, admitting them, admitting how outrageous they were (and some are still) I think is the only way forward.

That holds for the Armenian case as well not just the Greek one. Nevertheless, happy to see you collaborate what I said and it was not meant as an "attack" but more as a defence of the truth, which is after all what will set us both free

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by CharlesBHoff


First than 8 year old boy isnot than baby. You inply that the Ott took newly born baby from they mother breast. First there was no bottle feeding of baby with baby formular you buy at the Christian Fundie fravor store Walmarket. In fact the Ott didnot never excute than woman nurseing than baby until the child was 2 or 3 year old and many time the Sultan pardon just womans as than act of kindness. Christian state execute woman nurseing baby all the time.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Ancyrean,
at last someone recognized the brutal beyond belief Ottoman practice of snatching the babies from their mothers at regular intervals and encompassing a vast population of Christians.

Actually, no one but you says that babies were snatched from their mothers.

[Bereta_Eder]

The only objection I see is how old they were before they were taken by the Ottoman soldiers. The idea of which was BTW to have them forget their roots completely. Beyond an age that was not possible.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by paiktis22
The only objection I see is how old they were before they were taken by the Ottoman soldiers.

Eight-year olds are not babies suckling at the mother's breast. You haven't answered why families tried to get their kids taken nor why the Morea revolted against the Venetians and helped the Ottomans retake the area and why Christian serfs fled to the Empire.

Nor did they forget their roots, for they often helped their families. Being picked for the kapikulu was a great boon for any family whose child was taken.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Eight-year olds are not babies suckling at the mother's breast.

There was a maximum age set for reasons already stated.
Does the forceful removal of a boy from his mother becomes less repugnant when the boy is older?

You haven't answered why families tried to get their kids taken

The vast majority of mothers, quite understandably, tried to hide their children. Some succeeded, others failed. The few who decided to give them up because of the severe poverty doesn't cancel the insane anguish of hundrends of thousands.

nor why the Morea revolted against the Venetians and helped the Ottomans retake the area and why Christian serfs fled to the Empire.

I don't know enough to answer about this particular case (divisions between them, aims, subsequentagreements with the Ottomans), however I fail to see how this invalidates anything else

Nor did they forget their roots, for they often helped their families.

Yes not all forgot. But the vast majority did as the aim was exactly this, to forget and become attached to noone but the sultan.

[Palaiologos]

As far as i know it was mainly Serb and Bulgarian children that were removed from their families.

In any case Constantinople is an unobtainable objective nowdays. 16.000.000 mongols inhabit it making rather impossible to be assimilated by a 10.000.000 country such as Greece. Having in mind that ethinc cleansings are frowned upon these days the Greek high command deems that a future offensive in Thrace will be halted volunterary before Constantinople.

[chequita guevara]

Eight was the minimum age. You need to forget the propaganda you learned in school. All of us outside Greece who have studied the history of the area disagree with you, regardless of the country we are from. Thus, the problem seems to be you.