Re-establish Byzantium?

[Bereta_Eder]

The Ottoman Empire was actually unbelievably cruel in some respects. Such as the practise of jenissars where babies were snatched from the embraces of their mothers by Turkish soldiers to be raised as soldiers for the Ottomans. So it was clearly not all love and honey at any rate

[Bereta_Eder]

Greeks and Armenians came to the City but they were actually the "lifeforce" of it since they were traders of great resource. When they were killed and expelled, after the advert of nationalism virtually the whole middle class of the City was wiped out and it actually suffered great poverty. The same happened in Smyrni, now Izmir in 1922 after the failed greek invasion. Ottomans also used "Romans" as translators and diplomats (!!) since they were not well versed in languages in general.

It's true that the Empire had given great leniency to the church but that was so in order to help control the christians. It held the church accountable for every riot or uprising of them. Indicatively the Patriarch at the time of the greek revolution (who incidently had condemned it) was hanged by the sultan as punishment for failing on his duties as were dictated by the sultan, an act which created much sympathy for the "greek cause" in europe. (which europe had initally condemned the greek revolt as "demonic" since after barely having recuperated from the napolean wars it strived to avert any uprising and fighting anywhere in europe using -what else - "catchy" religious phrases )


Eventually I think the downfall of the Ottoman Empire was its resistance to progress. When Europe was plunging in Enlightnment, the Ottoman Empire stayed barricated in static societal norms. As an example was the casual orders issued by Sultans to chop the head and bring it to them of anyone he deemed as criminal. (not very enlightened!!!)

Actually eventually I think the greek revolution was simply a societal need for progress more than anything else. It's no wonder that the onces who initially financed it were no others than traders.

The exclusion of the Balkans from the Enlightment tide of Europe I think plays a huge part of many of today's societal and other problems.

BTW byzantium had grown too rigid and was as said already defeated by the Franks and the crusaders. Constantinople fell as a ripe apple.

Just my two cents

[Barinthus]

Reestablish Byzantium? Pfft, let's re-establish the Holy Roman Empire. We're already making some progress with EU and all.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by paiktis22
The Ottoman Empire was actually unbelievably cruel in some respects. Such as the practise of jenissars where babies were snatched from the embraces of their mothers by Turkish soldiers to be raised as soldiers for the Ottomans. So it was clearly not all love and honey at any rate

So unbelievably cruel that Christian families actually volunteered their sons for a place in the Janissaries.

'But there was also another side to the system of recruiting. Owing to the severe oppression and the great poverty which prevailed in the Christian communities, many a boy, in order to escape this misery, was only too glad to volunteer for the corps, and many parents, to secure a better future for their children, encouraged their sons to enlist. Even from countries outside the Ottoman Empire hordes of youngsters sought admission into the ranks of the Janizaries. The escape from poverty and the riches and great honors which this service offered were great attractions. Turkish officials never failed to hold out these advantages before the starved Christian boys. Indeed, these benefits led the Turkish people to complain against the monopolization of the highest positions in the State by men of Christian birth. Gradually, Turkish boys began to be smuggled into the corps, their parents turning them over to Christians to be delivered to recruiting officers in place of their own children. '

http://www.xenophongi.org/milhist/modern/janizar.htm

If anyone's interested in the economic and social life of the Ottoman Empire, rather than paiktis's somewhat chauvinistic viewpoint (read: it was all the Armenians and Greeks, I tell ya!) try this book:

http://www.history-asia.com/An_Economic_and_Social_History_of_the_Ottoman_Empire_13001914_2_volume_set_paperback_0521585805.html

Given that Constantinople was re-established as Istanbul, a city where Roman, Orthodox and Protestant Christianity could exist side by side, where Jews, Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims could live and work at a time when Europe was about to pass into one of the most destructive and murderous phases in its history, I think this is no small achievement for a supposedly 'cruel, barbarous' people.

Cruel is, as cruel does- the Spanish tortured, killed and exiled Spanish Jews (who fled to the 'cruel' Ottoman Empire- imagine that) Moorish and Jewish converts to Christianity and Spanish Moors.

The French tortured, murdered and expelled French Protestants.

The English did the same with their English Catholics, and Puritans.

There were wars of religion in France, Germany, Switzerland, the Holy Roman Empire, the Netherlands and Belgium, wholesale massacres, etc, etc.

In short- the Ottomans were no more cruel than any other state in the area.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by paiktis22
The Ottoman Empire was actually unbelievably cruel in some respects. Such as the practise of jenissars where babies were snatched from the embraces of their mothers by Turkish soldiers to be raised as soldiers for the Ottomans. So it was clearly not all love and honey at any rate

That's not so cruel. They would be drafted into the army later on anyway
Besides How about the cruelty of the Byzantine practice of sticking out the eyes (apparently a very common way of eliminating annoying political opponents, relatives and other rabble)

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by molly bloom


So unbelievably cruel that Christian families actually volunteered their sons for a place in the Janissaries.

'But there was also another side to the system of recruiting. Owing to the severe oppression and the great poverty which prevailed in the Christian communities, many a boy, in order to escape this misery, was only too glad to volunteer for the corps, and many parents, to secure a better future for their children, encouraged their sons to enlist. Even from countries outside the Ottoman Empire hordes of youngsters sought admission into the ranks of the Janizaries. The escape from poverty and the riches and great honors which this service offered were great attractions. Turkish officials never failed to hold out these advantages before the starved Christian boys. Indeed, these benefits led the Turkish people to complain against the monopolization of the highest positions in the State by men of Christian birth. Gradually, Turkish boys began to be smuggled into the corps, their parents turning them over to Christians to be delivered to recruiting officers in place of their own children. '

http://www.xenophongi.org/milhist/modern/janizar.htm

If anyone's interested in the economic and social life of the Ottoman Empire, rather than paiktis's somewhat chauvinistic viewpoint (read: it was all the Armenians and Greeks, I tell ya!) try this book:

http://www.history-asia.com/An_Economic_and_Social_History_of_the_Ottoman_Empire_13001914_2_volume_set_paperback_0521585805.html

Given that Constantinople was re-established as Istanbul, a city where Roman, Orthodox and Protestant Christianity could exist side by side, where Jews, Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims could live and work at a time when Europe was about to pass into one of the most destructive and murderous phases in its history, I think this is no small achievement for a supposedly 'cruel, barbarous' people.

Cruel is, as cruel does- the Spanish tortured, killed and exiled Spanish Jews (who fled to the 'cruel' Ottoman Empire- imagine that) Moorish and Jewish converts to Christianity and Spanish Moors.

The French tortured, murdered and expelled French Protestants.

The English did the same with their English Catholics, and Puritans.

There were wars of religion in France, Germany, Switzerland, the Holy Roman Empire, the Netherlands and Belgium, wholesale massacres, etc, etc.

In short- the Ottomans were no more cruel than any other state in the area.

In fact the sultan of the Ott send Martin Luther than invi to settle all Lutheran in the Ott Empire under the Empire protection from the Cath Church. Many small Christian sects that where unpol in Europe at that time move to the Ott Empire where they have protection for they belief. Some of them have belief that the Ott themself found stanger and odd.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Trajanus


That's not so cruel. They would be drafted into the army later on anyway

Actually they wouldn't. "Heathens", to use a posh phrase, were delivered from serving in the Ottoman army. Only Muslims could. Unbelievers were made to pay a tribute instead. This was actually a bonus, albeit unwillingly to the unbelievers.

The violent snatch of babies from their mothers' embrace was so traumatizing that the people under the Ottomans had built elaborate intricate roads, very small and very complex in order to try and escape when the Ottoman troops came for the collection of the babies.


The Ottomans, were thinking that the Greeks and other people were simply imitating their anarchistic way of building cities and let that be, letting this way some of the babies to escape that horrible fate.



BTW Molly bloom, you have another mistake in your source: Constantinople was renamed Istanbul in the 1920's.

[Bereta_Eder]

Also molly bloom, I'm not so sure where you get the idea that the Ottoman empire was "well governed" or tolerant.

The absence of rule was a common practise, an unbeliever could never testify against a muslim in the presence of the authorities (the christian's word would always be taken as a lie verus that of a muslim) etc. And a very prefered way of the Sultan to administer "justice" (when he didnt like someone) was beheadement.

And all these as Europe was entering Enlightment.

So cruel and barbarous? Yes most definitely, as much as the europeans only difference that the latter eventually stepped out of it, the Ottomans had to be destroyed.

And the middle class was predominantly Greek and Armenian, yes, at least in the two big western cities, the City (obviously) and Izmir.

[Imran Siddiqui]

an unbeliever could never testify against a muslim in the presence of the authorities

Which was the same as in Europe at the same times, especially in canon courts.

And of course in Europe, Muslims couldn't even exist in society... at least anywhere not named Poland.

[Bereta_Eder]

_In the Ottoman Empire it was the same untill it collapsed.


_People of different faiths, and large numbers of them were already living under the Ottomans. Simply killing them or start expelling them couldn't be contamplated (untill much later).

[Imran Siddiqui]

So they weren't as cruel as you've have them be? Ah, we've made a breakthrough .

[Bereta_Eder]

I haven't seen any of my points refuted?

[Imran Siddiqui]

The fact that the Ottomans weren't worse and were perhaps better than Europeans in the 1500s and 1600s shows they weren't as 'cruel' as you make them out to be.

[Bereta_Eder]

But I think we've already agreed that many of their practices were cruel. If they were the same untill they were destroyed as the Europeans were before they entered Englightnemt is a another topic and a huge one at that I'm afraid! Why do you want to make the connection?

[Bereta_Eder]

Also taken from molly bloom's sayings no less

Originally posted by molly bloom
Owing to the severe oppression and the great poverty which prevailed in the Christian communities

So would the people of Christian faith be better off in a Christian country? I think so. For Muslims maybe the Ottoman Empire was paradise, I can't say! If anything christian mothers wouldn't be afraid witless of having their new born babies snatched from their arms given any random night at any case. There are plenty of lamentations written in rocks and old books (since paper was fobidden to the christians IIRC) about those horrible acts. And all that because the Ottomans thought that christians had some special value or would make better fighters...