Re-establish Byzantium?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by paiktis22
A very good. A breathrough, a cautious one but a breathrough nevertheless

Hey, Orwell, saying that you are wrong is not admitting that you are right.

[chequita guevara]

Babies do not equal children. Children were taken, not babies.

[lord of the mark]

from the center for holocaust and Genocide studies

"In the spring of 1915 the Turkish government ordered the systematic deportation of the Armenian people. In fact, deportation was a thinly disguised form of extermination. Village by village, town by town, according to a precise plan, the able-bodied Armenian men were taken away and murdered. Then, the remaining people - women, children, and the elderly - were herded south in long columns, exposed to hunger and thirst, attacked by their Turkish "guards" or by roving brigands, and subjected to every form of humiliation and torture. Most suffered horrible deaths along the way or, if they survived the long march, died alone in the Syrian desert. Thus an entire nation was destroyed and the Armenian people were effectively eliminated from their homeland of nearly 3000 years."


Note - the above DOES NOT state that there was an explicit order for genocide - rather one for deportation. The deaths of women and children appear to have been haphazard. The deaths of the able bodied men appears to have been quite thorough. Whatever this is, if it was simply mob driven atrocities, or atrocities by local military officers, it was exceptional in human history in a set of spontaneous actions being so thorough. Perhaps not enough evidence for a criminal conviction in the US ("proof beyond a reasonable doubt") but certainly enough for a civil case ("preponderance of evidence")

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
from the center for holocaust and Genocide studies

"In the spring of 1915 the Turkish government ordered the systematic deportation of the Armenian people. In fact, deportation was a thinly disguised form of extermination. Village by village, town by town, according to a precise plan, the able-bodied Armenian men were taken away and murdered. Then, the remaining people - women, children, and the elderly - were herded south in long columns, exposed to hunger and thirst, attacked by their Turkish "guards" or by roving brigands, and subjected to every form of humiliation and torture. Most suffered horrible deaths along the way or, if they survived the long march, died alone in the Syrian desert. Thus an entire nation was destroyed and the Armenian people were effectively eliminated from their homeland of nearly 3000 years."


Note - the above DOES NOT state that there was an explicit order for genocide - rather one for deportation. The deaths of women and children appear to have been haphazard. The deaths of the able bodied men appears to have been quite thorough. Whatever this is, if it was simply mob driven atrocities, or atrocities by local military officers, it was exceptional in human history in a set of spontaneous actions being so thorough. Perhaps not enough evidence for a criminal conviction in the US ("proof beyond a reasonable doubt") but certainly enough for a civil case ("preponderance of evidence")

Sloppy work on this by the center. First The Armenian where acting as 5th columist for the Imperial Russian Army an any Nation would relocrate than hosile proplate
else like we did to the Japness illegality against our Cont
in 1942.

[CharlesBHoff]

In Europe of that time it than serf got marry the lord whom he was bound to have the legal right to be the first man to have sexual intercouce with her. This is basely rape of than woman they never ask her consent. It than Apartment builting landlord try this today saying that these is than clause in the lease allowance him to have sex with your wife anytime he want to our court will strike that clause from the lease.

1% of the noble sent wife back to hushand without excice they right, 4% slep with the woman but didnot have sex with her, 95 % have sex her and about 50 % kept sleeping with her untril they got her pregeant with they child.

This idear would neverr occour to than Ott or Muslim landowner at all.

[chequita guevara]

There's no excuse for the Armenian genocide.

[Barinthus]

double post

[Barinthus]

http://www.genocide1915.info/# for more information on Armenian genocide.

Check out this one also: http://www.cilicia.com/armo10.html

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Evil Knevil
Germany was way more ****ed than Turkey, and was effectively overrun, wheras the Govt in Istanbul remained largely intact after the cease-fire. Being overrun and having a collapse of central authority stopped many records being incinerated?

Germany had an even more complex bureaucracy than Turkey- this was a consequence of Nazi policy. So even though they tried to keep the horrors off the books, some evidence managed to seep in.

The difference is one of mechanisation of theprocess and 'scientific' application.

The Nazi death camps were exactly that- places set up to exterminate people. If you read the autobiography of Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz, or hear Eichmann's testimony at his trial, youcan see that the Nazi authorities tried various different methods to achieve as large and effective a kill ratio as possible- from mobile units (typically lorries or vans) in which carbon monoxide would be pumped through a hose, to deliberate starvation of Soviet prisoners, withholding adequate or preventive medical treatment (meaning that malnourished or exhausted prisoners died more easily of diseases such as typhus and dysentery) to the mass shooting by Einsatzgruppen units and eventually the Zyklon B chambers.

It was very much a process, rather than what seems to have taken place in the Armenian genocide, where Ottoman armed forces instituted a haphazard uncoordinated campaign against what were alleged to be a potential 'fifth column' of Christian communities (not just Armenians, but Assyrians too). In this they also had the help of resident Muslim communities such as the Kurds.

Similarly there are accounts of scores being settled in Russian occupied Armenia, although it is argued that the Armenians there had no choice but to go along with the Russians, and certainly when the Greeks were encouraged to break out of Izmir and 'restore' order in Anatolia (read: reduce the former Ottoman Empire to a rump state) Muslims were also massacred by Greek forces.

If we condemn one genocide, we should condemn all- one is no more 'understandable' than another.

'Well for my part, I'm perfectly ready to admit any attrocities committed by the Greeks in the war of independence. Readily and courageously.'

This is plainly disgusting and indefensible.

Well done, Fez of the Hellenes, you've reached a new low.

[Palaiologos]

Look dudes the orthodox populations of Asia minor were wiped out by the young Turks movement. It seems the multi ethnic Ottoman empire didn't fit in the new "nation state".

Both of my grandmothers are from Asia minor and told me of the events. And i don't think they were mind washed by some obsure anti-turkish international propaganda.

We are talking about hundreds of thousand of people loosing their lives in systematic genocide and "worker" battalions, and you are talking about lack of evidence in documents? Like you have thoroughly searched the Ottoman bureacratic records?

And it was not an attempt to destroy an entire race dude. Just the ethnic presence of Armenians and Greeks in the lands that were to form the new national Turkish state. Armenians dwelling in the lands to be given to russia were not harmed. The ethinicities that were generally hostile towards the Turks were the target. F.e the Jews cooperated with the Turks so as to fill in the power vacuum left by the depart of the Greek merchant class.

And it WAS state policy man. I mean Kemal's guerillas were searching the villages for orthodox people-many times the Greeks and Armenians were being hidden by their Turkish neighbores.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Evil Knevil
However, I'm officially 'opinionless' on the Armenian massacre since I don't think I've done enough research. Any recommendations?

I'd like to answer to this in two posts. First, a few caveats:

If you'd care to read more into the matter, you'd meet with a difference of style in Turkish and Armenian approaches to the issue.

Most of the Armenian books around (like the book paiktis quoted) aims to prove that it was 'genocide' by presenting firsthand accounts of personal sufferings, including excesses committed by Turkish offciers or troops. At the end of the story you are left with vivid descriptions of real human suffering, and as a token of your respect for that suffering you are expected to accept the strongest word in the dictionary for words of human cruelty, i.e. genocide. "If such suffering does not correspond to genocide, just to what it corresponds?" is the bottomline arguement.

The human suffering approach is very effective, because many people want to show their respects to human suffering, and after knowing about individual experiences they have no reason to risk disrespect by academical arguements like "evidence is not enough to label it genocide, maam".

But genocide has a definiton beyond mere suffering (however large), and that's where their arguement starts to fall apart.

OTOH, Turkish sources attempts to take on the basic arguementative points of the Armenian view. They aim to refute the evidence Armenains present and to show flaws in their overall arguement that it can be defined as "genocide". The term genocide has a very specific definition and requires the meeting of specific criteria. Turkish writers are more academical in their approach in this respect. Check out the links I post below

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Evil Knevil
However, I'm officially 'opinionless' on the Armenian massacre since I don't think I've done enough research. Any recommendations?

And now, practical sources:

An excellent book I'd recommend is Kamuran Gurun's "Armenian File". The book is available online in its entirety here or if you'd still be interested in a hard copy I could locate it at amazon.co.uk here ). There's another reference site here which is more practical than trying to read a book. In that link, I'd like to draw your attention to here, as a starter and also here for a comparison with the Holocaust . This is another place to look at.

I hope these prove useful

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by DataAeolus
http://www.genocide1915.info/# for more information on Armenian genocide.

Check out this one also: http://www.cilicia.com/armo10.html

Idon't intend to start a 'my-link-vs-your-link' contest here but, just couldn't help quote from the first link in its section titled 'history' , which starts with this:

Thoughout much of its history, Turkey has had it's eyes on the Armenian land. Conquering Armenia was and probably still is their desire today. Geographically speaking, Armenia is the only Christian nation in that part of the world. It is surrounded in all directions by Muslim nations who would like nothing more than uniting their religious lands of muslim nations throughout the middle east stretching all the way to Europe and Asia.

What about Georgia and Russia? Who's trying to unite what?

And what about this:

On April 24, 1915 Groups of Turkish soldiers knocked on the doors of Armenian people convincing them that the war would be faught in their lands and an evacuation was in order. They relocated these Armenian people from their land and home by promising safety from the war. They were also told that the Turkish soldiers were fighting for their safety and that they needed every weapon or household appliance that could assist them in fighting the war. The Armenians in their naïve trust in their neighbors gladly gave the soldiers all they had to offer.

24 April is not a date on which any 'grand plan' was put into effect. If you don't believe me, check out their own chronology next to that article (the 'Genocide Event Search'). 24 April is chosen symbolically by Armenian activists to commemorate their sufferings, it's a date on which certain eminent Armenians were arrested, not one on which soldiers knocked doors and stuff.

By the way DataAeolus, did you examine the Turkish position on the issue before subscribing to the word 'genocide'?

In my experience, whenever I had to discuss this issue with anybody repeating the phrase, people who thought they was just following conventional wisdom was almost always surprised there was an arguement at all against such a politically correct sounding conclusion ('it was genocide')

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by paiktis22

The only onces who try to deny that are some romantic modern Turkish literature and their followers. I don't think they render humanity any service at all

People who elaborated on the issue here are speaking from their acquaintenance with the worldwide literature on Ottoman history

Originally posted by paiktis22

here I disagree. I think it's fundamental that we accept the truth and not "Eachothers truth" but the truth in order to move forward. The same was done with Germany after WWII.
I'm not trying to play holier than thou, simply point out that denying attrocities or pointing fingers is IMHO the wrong approach.

But you see, we are elaborating here why the truth is not how you describe it to us (baby-snatching, they-were-crueler-than-everybody-else, etc). Also, my entire effort here to explain my perspective on the issue of genocide recently in this thread is also a result of what you can call 'conflicting truths'.

In general, if the pursuit of truth involves a lot of emotional baggage, then the pursuit of truth will cease to be an enterprise into finding evidence and documents, but will rather degenerate into a quest to make 'the otherÝ to accept 'our' truth on the merits of our emotional intensity

[Ancyrean]

Palaiologos, you make quite a few allegations there. For example, I thought I knew enough about the constructions with regard to the period of 1919-1922, but a Jewish collaboration with genocidal criminals "to fill in the power vacuum left by the depart of the Greek merchant class" is new to me

And the reason that there's no Greek Orthodox people in Anatolia today is the Population Exchange Agreement between Turkey and Greece (1923-24), which was devastating enough for both Turks and Greeks, but this had nothing to do with Young Turks.