Re-establish Byzantium?

[Ancyrean]

By the way, yesterday (25 March) was the National Day of the Hellenic Republic

My best wishes on the occasion, and chronia polla to all Greek posters of Apolyton

[Palaiologos]

Thanks dude!
Yashashin Yunanistan!Did i say that correctly LOL?

Look man i am the last person to claim that deportation and removal of people is inherently evil. From the turkish side they did good removing the Greeks and Armenians as we did good in clearing out greece from albanians and Slavs after WW2.
Frankly the armenian claims of a grand plan to eradicate their race from the face of the earth are BS.
You can't deny though that in the early 1900s the majority of the armenians were killed or deported. Those "work batalions" are no fabrication and this i can confirm. Orthodox Christians were taken out to long marches with the sole purpose of perishing from exhaustion, hunger or maltreatment.

IIRC one of the main ideological bases of the young turks movement was the creation of a Turkish national state as opposed to the multi ethinc Ottoman Empire. To this end the orthodox greek populations traditionally hostile to the Turks were to be removed one way or the other.

Now as for the population exchange thing the general belief in Greece is that we got a bad deal. Turkey in the 50s and 60s adopted a more anti-Greek policy and deported the Greeks of Constantinople, Imbros and Tenedos-all of them traditional places of Greek activity.

I don't blame the Turks for doing that.They did good from their point of view. What furstrates me is that we didn't grab that opportunity and likewise deport the turkish minority of Thrace. We could even deport them later when the troubles in Cyprus broke out or even when you dudes invaded the island in 1974.

[Palaiologos]

As for the jews its no secret that they were exhilarated that the hateful Greeks were leaving Asia minor at last.

Traditionally the Greeks were in control of the trade of Asia minor, a most privileged possition that the jews wanted to take.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
Thanks dude!
Yashashin Yunanistan!Did i say that correctly LOL?

>Long live Greece!-in Turkish<

Sound good enough for me

Originally posted by Palaiologos
Look man i am the last person to claim that deportation and removal of people is inherently evil. From the turkish side they did good removing the Greeks and Armenians as we did good in clearing out greece from albanians and Slavs after WW2.
Frankly the armenian claims of a grand plan to eradicate their race from the face of the earth are BS.
You can't deny though that in the early 1900s the majority of the armenians were killed or deported. Those "work batalions" are no fabrication and this i can confirm. Orthodox Christians were taken out to long marches with the sole purpose of perishing from exhaustion, hunger or maltreatment.

IIRC one of the main ideological bases of the young turks movement was the creation of a Turkish national state as opposed to the multi ethinc Ottoman Empire. To this end the orthodox greek populations traditionally hostile to the Turks were to be removed one way or the other.

Actually, nobody's denying hundreds of thousands died during the turmoil in those years, and that it was a tragedy. Disagreement starts when Armenian activists blow the arguement out of proportion and claim monopoly on the suffering.

As for Young Turks, yes there were many competing ideas among them to determine the best way forward for the Empire, from the earliest time of the Young Turk movement. Some favoured extensive autonomy for the nations within the empire, some favoured a more islamic (even pan-Islamist) movement, some courted nationalist ideas (even pan-Turkism). The idea of a national state for the Turks only was also around, but never received universal acceptance, as this would mean the liquidation of the Empire (the question of what happens to the Arab provinces -Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Palestine- in a Turkish national state).

The trauma of WWI and the absolute defeat after it lay the ground for the rise of a national state, but the fate of minorities were largely sealed by the course and the aftermath of WWI.

Now as for the population exchange thing the general belief in Greece is that we got a bad deal. Turkey in the 50s and 60s adopted a more anti-Greek policy and deported the Greeks of Constantinople, Imbros and Tenedos-all of them traditional places of Greek activity.

I don't blame the Turks for doing that.They did good from their point of view. What furstrates me is that we didn't grab that opportunity and likewise deport the turkish minority of Thrace. We could even deport them later when the troubles in Cyprus broke out or even when you dudes invaded the island in 1974.

You can't say you didn't try (the now-revoked Article 19 of Greek Citizenship Code paving the way for the loss of citizenship of tens of thousands of Turks comes to mind)... But at this point, instead of exchanging with you a catalogue of our countries' misdeeds towards the minority of the other, I just want to say here I wish our two countries treated their respective minorities better after making peace, man

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
As for the jews its no secret that they were exhilarated that the hateful Greeks were leaving Asia minor at last.

Traditionally the Greeks were in control of the trade of Asia minor, a most privileged possition that the jews wanted to take.

It's true that there was a certain degree of commercial competition between Armenians, Greeks and Jews within the Empire but to my knowledge it was never hostile and as far as i can remember from my reading so far, Jews in the Ottoman Empire largely stayed out of the whole mess during the period we are talking about.

[CharlesBHoff]

Read The Good Old Days by Ernst Llee, Willi Dressen and Volker Riess. The Holocaust as seen by its Perpetrators and Bystanders.

Alot of Germany Army Generals didnot like the SS Death Squad comeing into occup terr they held as they have the abilities to upset local occup people who where helping the Germany Armies ( skilled Jewish and non-jewish craftman, regerate inhabition who where unhostile became hosiles). The Death squad execution took than heavy mental and spirist toll of the man as they murder 100's or 1000's of unarmed man, woman,and childern in cold blood. Not all SS man commit these deed. Hiltmer the head of the SS issue than standing order that no man (SS or Regulate Army) can be force to take part in the excution of the Jews by fireing squard or death squad actically and they will not have to worry about it effecting they future promoan to highter rank. They have problem getting replacement for they death squads.

[Palaiologos]

SS death squads?

What does that has to do with the 1919-22 war or the armenian genocide man?

Or even with the Greek claims on Constantinople?

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
SS death squads?

What does that has to do with the 1919-22 war or the armenian genocide man?

Or even with the Greek claims on Constantinople?

There was no armenian genocide. The only other nation to commit genocide was England in the Boerwar.

https://www.boer.co.zn/boerwar/hellkamp.html

https://www.geocities.com/athens/acropolis/...41/boerwar.html

www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/ssrq/afr...rica/boers.html

[Palaiologos]

Your links don't work man.

And err.. you really don't believe that only Germany and England commited genocides now do you?

If you are reffering to the use of concetration camps as "genocide" then ok only England, Germany and the United States have used them. And England for heaven's sake wasn't exterminating the dutch. Just locked them up.

But frankly i still don't see what the hell does these have to do with the topic under discussion.

[CharlesBHoff]

The Dutch alway call Churchhill than cockroach for his murber of 3000 woman and children in these death camp they ran in the Boer war so Churchhill have no moral right to critical the Germany death camp at all.

[CharlesBHoff]

Well I was on than Pakistan Forem with some Pakistian and Hindist knick the butt off of than Englishperson.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by CharlesBHoff


There was no armenian genocide. The only other nation to commit genocide was England in the Boerwar.

https://www.boer.co.zn/boerwar/hellkamp.html

https://www.geocities.com/athens/acropolis/...41/boerwar.html

www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/ssrq/afr...rica/boers.html

Utter rubbish- the Boer War detention camps were not constructed to commit genocide, nor was the intention to do so.

The action against Armenian and Assyrian Christians encompassed mass killing, forced relocation and destruction of cultural centres, such as churches.

Sounds like a 'genocide' by any standards.

However other nations did commit genocidal acts- from the Germans in Namibia against the Hereros, to the Manchu Empire against the Zungar, as a matter of state policy.

If you don't think that Ottoman forces weren't committing a form of genocide, you'd have to explain why the German representatives in Istanbul tried to pressure the Sultan to stop the massacres in the Eastern Ottoman Empire- why on earth would they be interested in what went on in an ally's territory?

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by molly bloom


Utter rubbish- the Boer War detention camps were not constructed to commit genocide, nor was the intention to do so.

The action against Armenian and Assyrian Christians encompassed mass killing, forced relocation and destruction of cultural centres, such as churches.

Sounds like a 'genocide' by any standards.

However other nations did commit genocidal acts- from the Germans in Namibia against the Hereros, to the Manchu Empire against the Zungar, as a matter of state policy.

If you don't think that Ottoman forces weren't committing a form of genocide, you'd have to explain why the German representatives in Istanbul tried to pressure the Sultan to stop the massacres in the Eastern Ottoman Empire- why on earth would they be interested in what went on in an ally's territory?

It was not state polcy as no record of it being order exist. The Nazi state polcy of genocide is proven by the record they kept.

Than I read in a Pakistan newpaper that america cargo ship offload WMD to plant inside of Iraq and I believe this as it is something evil america would do especial the America Zionist who run america.

[Ted Striker]

America is evil

And run by jews

Hey Siro and Azazel your coffee is ready

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by CharlesBHoff


It was not state polcy as no record of it being order exist. The Nazi state polcy of genocide is proven by the record they kept.

Than I read in a Pakistan newpaper that america cargo ship offload WMD to plant inside of Iraq and I believe this as it is something evil america would do especial the America Zionist who run america.

It's true....Steven Spielberg is in charge of the Spin.