remember those teenage abstinence pledges?

[Capt Dizle]

Casual sex is destructive behavior, short of the glory of God. It is sin. It is not okay.

But I am not going to condemn anyone for it.

[Ben Kenobi]

jimmytrick:

You need to make a distinction between temporary abstinence and permanent abstinence.

While the latter, not all will be able to do, the former is definitely possible for everyone.

Waiting until marriage is a form of temporary abstinence, while permanent abstinence is usually done only by priests.

It is a form of sacrifice, a personal commitment that should not be thrust upon the people as a standard of behavior.

Again, Christ makes the case for marriage as the proper expression of sexuality, as a standard of conduct. You are right that, 'those who can accept this word, ought to accept the word,' applies to abstinence, but only to permanent and not temporary abstinence.

[Ben Kenobi]

BTW, you may want to look at stats between the corrolation(sp?) with teenage pregnancy and REAL ex-education Versus no-sex-education and/or fairy tales.
( see the difference between US/GB and for example France/Holland )

No true scotsman fallacy.

What counts as true education? That is an arbitrary measure.

[Ben Kenobi]

Also, I'm still wondering where Ben got that 99% figure for non-pledgers. He claims it is from the first post, but neither what was posted nor the link (they're identical, actually) makes any mention whatsoever about that.

Looking for the article.

Hang on.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4485691/

"99 percent of non-pledgers and 88 percent of pledgers have sex before marriage."

[Ben Kenobi]

a lot of the successful pledgers are people who would have abstained from sex before marriage for religious reasons anyway.

There are plenty more religious folks than successful pledgers, so clearly there is something more going on.

[Ben Kenobi]

You think married people don't use protection and have abortions?

No, I do not say that.

Why should they use condoms, when there are other methods that are more successful at preventing pregnancy, such as the Billings method?

[Ben Kenobi]

But I'll take PP over Families of the Americas (?) or any other christian-biased planning any day.

Suit yourself. My clients will be very disappointed.

[Ben Kenobi]

They're already using all the tricks in the book- lying about the evils of sex, telling kids they'll go to Hell, etc. - so what else is there that can be done to improve the figure..? Lie some more? Camps like the ones used to de-gay people?

First of all, have I lied anywhere in this thread, compared to the folks that tell you to use a condom everytime?

People are tuning out on that message, because why should they bother when they have a backup like abortion, should push come to shove?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Casual sex is destructive behavior, short of the glory of God. It is sin. It is not okay.

But I am not going to condemn anyone for it.

That's good, because didn't a while a go on these boards you claim to have had a threesome with younger women at a point when you would have been married?

[Ben Kenobi]

If it can be done, and people have free will, why did 88% fail their pledges utterly?

Why do people have abortions when they have such perfect contraception?

Same reasons. People aren't perfect, they make mistakes.

I generally don't have sex while working. Also, my girl is in Philadelphia... and its better in person.

That's unnatural to deny yourself your rightful sex needs. I'm sure you can find someone who will be willing to fulfill your desires, who is much closer than Philadelphia.

Genes don't determine behavior? Not every behavior, certainly since perceptive reasoning of our environment also has some effect on behavior... however, there are certain behaviors which are common to all organisms with DNA... I.E. genetically determined.

Again, regardless of how common a behavior is, one does have control over their actions.

Sex, which has been around since Precambrian life.

Survival and/or protection of progeny.

This would only be an argument against those who never have sex, and not for those who wait for marriage.

If those who wait, have more children, than those who do not, does not temporary abstinence confer a survival benefit? Would not evolution select those whom could wait?

You mentioned Rapists, however. Rapists have several psychological features beyond other people (who don't rape) which compel their acting to rape, and some are socially and some genetically derived... A paraphilia coupled with Antisocial Personal Disorder.

Yeah, so? I'm sure all rapists rape because their genes made them do so.

These alone aren't sufficient to excuse a rapist, in the eyes of the law... that would require a disassociation disorder or some pscyological feature which prevented their reasoning that a particular act was wrong.

Yes, but you have just denied your earlier case. If their is some genetic basis that encourages someone to rape, and genes determine behavior, than why do we condemn rapists for their actions?

Yes... and humans have inhibitions which can prevent sexual gratification, although placing them in an appropriate environment with a receptive partner will often result in sexual activity.

So choosing to pledge is merely an ínhibition?

I could easily see how waiting confers a survival advantage.

Not everyone has intercourse? What percentage of the population would you say thats true for?

Probably about 1-2%

I guess you don't have any peer reviewed figures for it...

Do you really want to challenge me for them?

Regardless of what you believe, there are people who never have sex. They are a direct refutation that sexual desires cannot be resisted.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ah, nice to see an article futher confirm my case.



Devices don't guard against HPV, White House argues

The Associated Press

Updated: 9:59 a.m. ET March 12, 2004WASHINGTON -

The Bush administration is considering requiring warning labels on condom packages noting that the contraceptive devices do not protect users from all sexually transmitted diseases.

Most recent studies indicate condoms do not safeguard against human papillomavirus, or HPV, a little-known but widespread sexually transmitted disease that, untreated, can cause genital warts or cervical cancer.

The FDA “has developed a regulatory plan to provider condom users with a consistent labeling message and the protection they should expect from condom use,” Dr. Daniel G. Schultz, director of the agency’s Office of Device Evaluation, said Thursday.

The agency “is preparing new guidance on condom labeling to address these issues,” Schultz told members of a House Government Reform subcommittee.

Warnings deter use?

Package labels now say that condoms, if properly used, reduce the risk of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases. The labels are silent on the issue of HPV. The question now is whether that statement needs to have any additional information regarding protection against the cervical cancer virus — without discouraging people from using condoms for AIDS protection.

The FDA has considered warning labels since 2000, when President Clinton directed the agency to re-examine whether information included in packages accurately reflected condom effectiveness in preventing all sexually transmitted diseases, including HPV.

But some lawmakers feared that such labels could turn people away from using condoms, thereby increasing the risk of contracting diseases such as AIDS, chlamydia and gonorrhea.

“Anything that undermines the effectiveness of condoms for these uses will have serious public health consequences,” said Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif. “Are condoms perfect? Of course not.

But reality requires us not to make a public health strategy against protection, but rather to ask a key question: compared to what?”

DATA STDs in America

The American Social Health Association estimates there are more than 15 million new cases of sexually transmitted diseases in the United States each year.
STD Incidence*

Chlamydia 3 million

Gonorrhea 650,000

Syphilis 70,000

Herpes 1 million

Human papillomavirus 5.5 million

Hepatitis B 77,000

Trichomoniasis 5 million

HIV 20,000



*Number of new cases in a given time period
Source: ASHA • Print this



2 million women infected
Some lawmakers “insist that abstinence-only education is the solution to teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases because abstinence works each time,” Waxman said. “Well, the evidence, however, indicates that abstinence-only education works rarely, if at all.”

Responded Rep. Jo Ann Davis, R-Va.: “This is not about social ideology, or religious ideology. It’s about informing women. ... And truly, the only way to be protected is abstinence. That’s not ideology — it’s fact.”

The White House wants to double, to $270 million, federal spending on education programs to convince young people that abstinence is the only certain way to prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. But an independent report for the government two years ago indicated that no reliable evidence exists that abstinence programs work.

More than 2 million American women are infected with HPV each year, said Dr. Ed Thompson, deputy director for public health services at the Centers for Disease Control. Ten thousand women are diagnosed annually with cervical cancer, claiming 4,000 lives, Thompson said.

© 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


Indeed, compared to what? Abstinence will work if done properly. Condoms, even if used properly, will NOT protect you from HPV.

[AnnC]

Originally posted by jimmytrick:Casual sex is destructive behavior, short of the glory of God. It is sin. It is not okay.

But I am not going to condemn anyone for it.

Originally posted by Boris Godunov:That's good, because didn't a while a go on these boards you claim to have had a threesome with younger women at a point when you would have been married?

Yes, he did:

Originally posted by jimmytrick: I accidentally ran into this once. I was with a girl and her roomate girlfriend came in, drunk, and decided to join. This made the one I was with mad and they took it out on me by competing to see which could perform the most spectacular feat with or, shall I say, on me.

It was rough, wicked and I lost a lot of skin from those darn nails but I wouldna missed it for the world.
.
.
Hey Boris, this happened to me when I was in my forties and both of these girls were in their twenties. Eat your heart out.

Probably explains his creative theology.

[Theben]

Ben:

Condoms don't protect against crabs, either. Do they need a disclaimer for that too? Sheesh.


p.s. Tell you what. You and your pledger buddies pledge to abstain from sex for the next 50 years, and us hellbound fornicators will keep rubbing genitals together for the same time period. If after then, you guys still have less diseases and children, I'll declare, "You're winner!"

[Ben Kenobi]

Yeah, but you won't die or become sterile from crabs.

You and your pledger buddies pledge to abstain from sex for the next 50 years

That won't work very well. I'd likely be dead by then.

Of course, is that not your intention?

[alva]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


No true scotsman fallacy.

What counts as true education? That is an arbitrary measure.

What do you..arbitrary?????

Just the facts would do, action and reaction...

Like the earth is round,
1+1=2,
etc...