remember those teenage abstinence pledges?

[Gibsie]

I don't even know what's being argued any more

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
It can be done, ergo, it is realistic.

If it can be done, and people have free will, why did 88% fail their pledges utterly?

So why are you posting here right now?

I generally don't have sex while working. Also, my girl is in Philadelphia... and its better in person.

Genes do not determine behavior. One can always choose to restrain the urge, otherwise, we would have no cause to arrest rapists, as they would simply fulfill their imperative.

Genes don't determine behavior? Not every behavior, certainly since perceptive reasoning of our environment also has some effect on behavior... however, there are certain behaviors which are common to all organisms with DNA... I.E. genetically determined.

• Sex, which has been around since Precambrian life.
• Survival and/or protection of progeny.

These behaviors were exhibited in the most rudimentary of organisms... and exist in all organisms today, irrespective of their environment, ability to reason, or isolation.

Organisms which don't follow this mandate die out, by natural selection.

---

You mentioned Rapists, however. Rapists have several psychological features beyond other people (who don't rape) which compel their acting to rape, and some are socially and some genetically derived... A paraphilia coupled with Antisocial Personal Disorder.

A paraphilia on its own wouldn't compel rape because their psyche balances their desire to perform an aberant sexual act, with its effect on others. Those with Antisocial Personal Disorder don't balance this, because they exhibit a number of the following features, usually including violent sympathetic features:

• callous unconcern for the feelings of others
• gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules and obligations
• incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them
• very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence
• incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment
• marked proneness to blame others, or to offer plausible rationalizations, for the behaviour that has brought the patient into conflict with society.

These alone aren't sufficient to excuse a rapist, in the eyes of the law... that would require a disassociation disorder or some pscyological feature which prevented their reasoning that a particular act was wrong.

So... some rapists are convicted, and some are found legally insane (which you didn't mention.) The pschyological features which compel rape are separate and distinct from those which excuse the action in the eyes of the law.

For a time, yes. There is a time and place for intercourse.

Yes... and humans have inhibitions which can prevent sexual gratification, although placing them in an appropriate environment with a receptive partner will often result in sexual activity.

Again, my rapist case, plus, not everyone has intercourse, ergo, genes cannot determine behavior.

See above regarding the rapist case.

Not everyone has intercourse? What percentage of the population would you say thats true for?

I guess you don't have any peer reviewed figures for it...

BAM

It does work, for some, it works better than a condom could ever hope.

In 88% of cases, it doesn't apparently, and you could hardly call the rest successes, since they married earlier than average.

If people can resist... why don't they all resist?

[Whaleboy]

I'm with the sane people (atheists) on this thread....

[Theben]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Still a fair deal for my Brooklyn Bridge which I'm trying to unload. After all, you did cite Planned Parenthood, which has about as much authority on Natural Family Planning, as Ann Coulter would have with the Anti-Defamation league.

Well how about a swap? But I'll take PP over Families of the Americas (?) or any other christian-biased planning any day.

[Gibsie]

I don't think the abstinence-lovers will be able to get the numbers down to anything much better than 90% failure. They're already using all the tricks in the book- lying about the evils of sex, telling kids they'll go to Hell, etc. - so what else is there that can be done to improve the figure..? Lie some more? Camps like the ones used to de-gay people?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
1. Not everyone has a biological imperitive for intercourse. They are doing so, because of peer pressure.

You think peer pressure is more important than an innate biological drive?

2. how could we condemn a rapist for his actions?

Because rape is a crime of violence in which sex is the weapon.

3. I would also argue that there is a biological imperitive for marriage.

Uh, no.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Birth control fails, so people resort to abortions.

You think married people don't use protection and have abortions?

[chequita guevara]

One thing a lot of people have failed to mention is, a lot of the successful pledgers are people who would have abstained from sex before marriage for religious reasons anyway.

[Kontiki]

Che,

Exactly. I was actually going to post that, but you beat me to it. Also, I'm still wondering where Ben got that 99% figure for non-pledgers. He claims it is from the first post, but neither what was posted nor the link (they're identical, actually) makes any mention whatsoever about that.

[MrBaggins]

He's probably saying that 99% of unmarried condom users have sex before marriage

[Capt Dizle]

The concept of abstinence stems from religious teachings. In Christianity, many teachings reach back to the Old Testament law. I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law, though both Christians and Jews still observe it, or try to. In fulfilling the law through His life, teachings, and death, Christ taught us a better, closer way to live in the spirit of God.

The point of Jesus’ teachings on the law, was that the law is beyond us. We cannot obey the law. We cannot defeat the desires of our flesh. It is what humanity is all about. Jesus taught us to love each other and not to judge. And he taught that those among us who sought to administer the law over us are hypocrites.

Abstinence is a good thing. But it is descended from the law, and only a few can bear it. To teach abstinence from sex as a means of birth control or disease control ignores this basic teaching of Christ. Abstinence is a way to honor God and ourselves. It is a form of sacrifice, a personal commitment that should not be thrust upon the people as a standard of behavior.

[alva]

quote:

Virgins make the worst lovers. They don't have a clue what they're doing. It's painful, awkward, and not very much fun to have sex with a virgin.

Ben:
So why do some men look for virgins in the first place, even if they are not virgins themselves?

Something about tightness that I keep hearing about?

So it can't be that bad.

* cough * Male power-trip *cough*

quote:

Because virgins don't know those guys are selfish lovers and are less likely to complain when the man fails to fully satisify them.

So then experience ain't all it's cracked up to be, eh?

Not if your crap yourself no, but experiece sure makes it a whole lot more fun.
-
BTW, you may want to look at stats between the corrolation(sp?) with teenage pregnancy and REAL ex-education Versus no-sex-education and/or fairy tales.
( see the difference between US/GB and for example France/Holland )

[MRT144]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
The concept of abstinence stems from religious teachings. In Christianity, many teachings reach back to the Old Testament law. I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law, though both Christians and Jews still observe it, or try to. In fulfilling the law through His life, teachings, and death, Christ taught us a better, closer way to live in the spirit of God.

The point of Jesus¡¦teachings on the law, was that the law is beyond us. We cannot obey the law. We cannot defeat the desires of our flesh. It is what humanity is all about. Jesus taught us to love each other and not to judge. And he taught that those among us who sought to administer the law over us are hypocrites.

Abstinence is a good thing. But it is descended from the law, and only a few can bear it. To teach abstinence from sex as a means of birth control or disease control ignores this basic teaching of Christ. Abstinence is a way to honor God and ourselves. It is a form of sacrifice, a personal commitment that should not be thrust upon the people as a standard of behavior.

holy ****ing ghost of john ritter, i agree with jimmytrick

[Q Classic]

jimmytrick

[AnnC]

It looks like jimmytrick is trying to redefine Christian theology, apparently trying to convince himself that Jesus thinks casual sex is ok.

Perhaps he should review Romans 6:

"Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God."