My big problem with Christianity

[Ben Kenobi]

The assumption that God is omnipotent is not safe to begin with, therefore there is no reason we should expect God to be omnipotent and all people on this earth to have native Christian morals

Expected this reply. No , we would not expect all people on Earth to have native Christian morals because not everyone will accept them. Only those people who accept God will share his morals.

Is there no reason to believe God to be omnipotent? Let us consider the contrary. St. Anselm argues that God is always the greatest being we can conceive. Therefore, a being that is not omnipotent, would not be god, because we could imagine a higher being.

I suggest either going the route that God does not exist, because you wil probably get more distance than trying to argue that God would not be omnipotent.

[Spiffor]

Well, since Jesus is God's son and God at the same time, I guess the answer is this: We killed God. He cannot punish us anymore

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Expected this reply. No , we would not expect all people on Earth to have native Christian morals because not everyone will accept them. Only those people who accept God will share his morals.

What about people like me? I accept most Chrstian morals, yet I don't believe in the magical juju Paul invented to have supersticious people flock to him...

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Well, since Jesus is God's son and God at the same time, I guess the answer is this: We killed God. He cannot punish us anymore

God is like Buffy... you keep killing him, and he keeps coming back.

[Jon Miller]

the point is that the wages of sin is death, the natural outcome of sin is death

Christ did not suffer to earn forgiveness

rather he died, and when he died (before even, when he took up the cup in the garden) he took our sin, our sentence, and was the one who did it instead of us

all we have to do is accept Christ's gift, and we will be saved, because he died for us

of course a lot of us sin again, and so have to accept His gift many times

and yes individuals are responsible for their own actions, their own sins

and as for the existence of sin, well look arround you, look at the holocaust, look at the abused children, look at all the evil in the world

there is sin, of that there can be no question

basically we are all murders, rapists, molesters, genocidists

and rightfully we deserve death

but when we go to the hangman, Christ comes in and says that He will swing for us, so that we have another chance

as for why sin is death, it is the same sort of thing like jumping off of a tall building, it is the natural consequence

sin distances us from God, and God is life, so when we leave God's presence we are heading toward the abyss (the grave, nothingness)

as such we die (for eternity) when we have left Him

sorry, I am not the best and discussing such concepts

Jon Miller

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Asher

Who said anything about something being fine?

You don't seem to comprehend the gravity of this debate. Saying something is "fine" or not is again a question of morals.

All I'm saying is different cultures, different religions, and different people all have different morals.

Yes, they have. But the fact that they all see different things as moral doesn´t prove that they are all equally right.

If someone claims women are inherently inferior, and builts a moral system around this, women could say there´s no evidence for such a claim, therefore it is nonsense to base the law on it. Then I think a moral system which assumes that women and men are equal is much more justified. So the Swiss did probably the "right" thing when they allowed women to vote too ca. 25 years ago..... :cute

Or not? Let´s wait what those evil relativists say....

[Stuie]

Originally posted by JohnT


God is like Buffy... you keep killing him, and he keeps coming back.

And while he's dead you can make a robot that acts like him.

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


...why did God choose the route he did, to have his Son serve as the sacrifice for many?

There are several clues that allow us to approach the answer. First of all, you have to look at the Jewish sacrificial system. Jews would offer sacrifices, as a sign of their contrition, and their request for forgiveness. God does not need their sacrifices, but such sacrifices made it clear that sin is no trifling matter.

However, the problem with these sacrifices, is that they had to be repeated. As animals, they were imperfect, and could not cleanse man of his sins permanently. Only a perfect sacrifice could effect such redemption. This is where Christ comes in.

Christ offered himself, voluntarily, to be the sacrifice, and became a man. He suffered all the temptations of man, yet remained sinless. Thus, when men crucified him on the cross, he remained blameless, and could become the perfect sacrifice for sin.

Basically what this is- a publicity stunt to steal believers away from Judaism.

Sacrifice animals? Pshaw!! Our GOD sacrificed HIS OWN SON! Take that, Jew! Nyeah, nyeah!

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Now we have a real topic to debate!

Are there any objective morals that apply to all peoples?

I think I can find one. What about the principle, 'all people should be equal before the law?'

I like that one.

I think all people, if they have shared their life and their bed with their true love for 20 years, should be allowed to visit them in their hospital death bed. And receive the surivor benefit from their pension.

Many, and probably most Christians would disagree.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking
Many, and probably most Christians would disagree.

I don't think most Christians will disagree. Most Christians won't see any problem with what you just said, provided the word "marriage" isn't thrown in the equation. Because they believe marriage is their own little thing.

[MikeH]

Originally posted by JohnT


God is like Buffy...

Weird... now I want to **** God...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by MikeH
Weird... now I want to **** God...

You're not the first one

[Ned]

Despite Dogma

1) God is the creator. He always was and always will be. He is perfect. Perfect being do not change.

2) God acts through the Holy Spirit.

3) The Holy Spirit created Jesus Christ. (How is not explained. Jesus could be the son of Mary and Joseph, but blessed by the HS.)

4) Dogma says that JC is God the same as God the Father. But this plainly contradicts the very words of the Bible or implies that God is not perfect and can change.

5) Dogma says that JC suffered and died for our sins. He seems though to have brought a new doctrine and philosopy to the world that changed it for the better. Perhaps this is how he "died for our sins."

[Ming]

Christianity is just one of MANY religions. While I can understand their myopic view that they are the only true religion... everybody else feels the same way about their religion (yes, some religions actually except the fact that you can believe in a god even if you aren't in their specific religion, but most christians don't). Heck, there are many different Christian religions that can't even agree on some things. So BK, your christian moral code is no more universal than anybody elses... and since their is a seperation of Church and State in the US, no single religion should dictate policy. If your version of Christianity doesn't accept same sex marriages... that's fine. You don't have to do them in your church. But to think that your limited moral beliefs should be IMPOSED on the rest of the world is just arogant and ignorant at best. There is no universal moral code... if there was, all the different faiths that believe in a god would all agree on a single moral code... and they don't!.
And that is the reason why there is a seperation of church and state here... I only wish it was as seperate in reality as it is supposed to be in theory.

[Spiffor]

Wow, this has to be the first time I agree so much with Ming on a political topic