Does the "average American" agree with Michael Moore?

[Ben Kenobi]

curb the hyperbole.

Perhaps it's hyperbole in the US. Elsewhere, GenghisFarb is bang on. He captures the fears of many Christians with respect to the government

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Perhaps it's hyperbole in the US. Elsewhere, GenghisFarb is bang on. He captures the fears of many Christians with respect to the government

It's so funny that Christians fear being oppressed by other Christians . . . well, maybe not. Y'all have always been better at oppressing each other than the rest of us. I just wish you would leave us out of your internal squabbles.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's so funny that Christians fear being oppressed by other Christians

Show me how the Canadian government, my government is Christian? They have enacted many things contrary to what Christians believe.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Show me how the Canadian government, my government is Christian? They have enacted many things contrary to what Christians believe.

The head of your government is the head of a church, QEII. The people in your government are Christians, unless you somehow believe that a gruop of atheists have secretly seized power. You are not the only Christians, and Christians have many different beliefs. Many are even willing to allow other people the option of not having to live by Christian rules.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Many are even willing to allow other people the option of not having to live by Christian rules.

Positively scandalous.

[Ben Kenobi]

The head of your government is the head of a church, QEII.

She's a bonny lass, but a rubber stamp. How will she have any effect on public policy?

The people in your government are Christians, unless you somehow believe that a group of atheists have secretly seized power.

There are many non-believers in the Canadian government.

You are not the only Christians, and Christians have many different beliefs.

True, but that's not the position of the government. You have to check your faith at the door of the legislature.

Many are even willing to allow other people the option of not having to live by Christian rules.

Not really the issue. They ostracise those who choose to express what they believe, and stand by what they believe, if they happen to be Christian. Ever hear of Elsie Wayne?

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Ghengis--

Please. Once the government starts busting into churches on Sunday morning and arrests congregations of Christians, you can say that the Democrats are trying to outlaw Christianity.

Until then, curb the hyperbole. It is unbecoming.

I didn't say Democrats were trying to outlaw Christianity I said (elements of)the Democratic Party (have been) pushing for making Christianity illegal. I am not about to wait silently on the sidelines until it IS illegal, which I admit is highly unlikely and somewhat absurd. But things that I think are absurd and never would have happened have, so I'm not taking anything for granted anymore.

I'm sorry but this is EXACTLY the way a good chunk of the Christian community views it. The Democratic party is at risk of alienating Christians into a Republican voting block the way the Military has virtually become. Maybe you don't see it because your not in the Bible Belt but I hear it discussed everyday when I'm back in Oklahoma and Texas. I hear it preached from the pulpits, I hear it as a theme at Christian Lectureships. Christianity is starting to become a lot more politically polarized. People think of local Democrats as Democrats but they view the National Democratic Party as an anti-Christian Anti-Christ.

The fact is the Left is very militant about eliminating Christianity from our society. I think the bulk is indifferent but by being so they make the few that are zealous seem like a much larger group. Its just like the same old philosophy we always use, the NRA used it to fight gun laws and the Pro-Lifers use it to fight abortion laws. "Today they take away our right to do so and so, and tomorrow they take away another.... "

Its not an unjustified belief, the ACLU (which in my opinion is a great concept, I just wished they actually fought for liberties instead of fighting to take liberties away) does appear to have an agenda to wipe Christianity out of America.

[Guynemer]

I'm sorry, but that is just patently ridiculous.

Nobody, apart from Osama bin Laden, wants to wipe Christianity out of America.

What a lot of people want, including me, is to wipe religion out of the government.

That, my friend, is a huge difference.

[Elok]

I would say that America is not opposed to Christianity so much as opposed to devout religious belief in general. Christianity is merely the most common religion and therefore bears the brunt, whereas Islam, Judaism, et al tend to be patronized rather than deliberately sneered at, especially as Sept. 11 made outright bigotry towards the more "foreign" religions unfashionable.

As for the "forcing your personal moral beliefs on the rest of us" shpiel, well, in regards to abortion at least, that's just idiotic. While the Christian faith does object to abortion, it does so on the same grounds it opposes murder, and even with god removed from the equation there is still a perfectly valid civil rights issue at hand should a fetus be considered human.

If you maintain that such a concept is a minority belief, well, what does that have to do with it? There was a time when only a few people in this country had a problem with "No Irish Need Apply" signs, and probably a good percentage of those objectors were preachers. As was MLK, forcing his personal morality on the country like that. I believe he used a fair amount of biblical rhetoric in his speeches too.

What the common statement essentially means is that civic principles are automatically invalid should they be inspired by religious fervor, or in persons possessing considerable religious fervor. Which is just daft.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb

I didn't say Democrats were trying to outlaw Christianity I said (elements of)the Democratic Party (have been) pushing for making Christianity illegal.

You got proof for that BAM statement?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb

I didn't say Democrats were trying to outlaw Christianity I said (elements of)the Democratic Party (have been) pushing for making Christianity illegal. I am not about to wait silently on the sidelines until it IS illegal, which I admit is highly unlikely and somewhat absurd. But things that I think are absurd and never would have happened have, so I'm not taking anything for granted anymore.

Man -- this statement is as sad as PA's statements that white men are being persecuted.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Guynemer
What a lot of people want, including me, is to wipe religion out of the government.

That, my friend, is a huge difference.

There is no religion in government, to say there is IS patently ridiculous.

Government does not have a soul, it does not worship any god. Therefore your task never existed. Europe has had Religious government but the United States has never had a government religion.

Members of our government and political leaders may have religious convictions and that is absolutely fine. They should be proud of their beliefs and openly and publicly display them if they wish.


On a side note, I am feeling so much better now. People were starting to agree with me on the forums today and I was concerned I had become moderate somehow.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
She's a bonny lass, but a rubber stamp. How will she have any effect on public policy?

Irrelevent. If they were trying to stamp out Christianity in Canada, they'd become a republic and no longer recongize the Queen.

There are many non-believers in the Canadian government.

Good for them. Have they forced you to stop going to church?

You have to check your faith at the door of the legislature.

I doubt that. More like, you can't force others to participate.

Not really the issue. They ostracise those who choose to express what they believe, and stand by what they believe, if they happen to be Christian.

Yes, it is the issue. No one is forcing you Christians to stop being Christian. No one is forcing you to live by their ways. If you dno't want an abortion, you aren't required to get one. If you don't believe in gay marriage, you don't have to marry a man.

Despite what they say, in our country, no one can stop you from praying in school on your private time.

On the other hand, Christians want to take away our right to have abortions. Christians want to take away our right to use contraception (even if all dont't, some do). Christians want to outlaw gay sex. Christians want to make marriages harder to get and harder to dissolve. Christians want to penalize sex outside marriage. Christians want to force my children to profess a belief in a diety in school. Christians want to force my kids to have to have a moment to pray in school. Christians want to force my kids to have to take "creation science." Christians want to keep my kids from being able to learn about real science. Christians want to keep my kids from being able to learn sex education. I don't have any kids, but I will, and I don't want you people telling me how to raise them and forcing your false God down their throats.

Ever hear of Elsie Wayne?

No.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Despite what they say, in our country, no one can stop you from praying in school on your private time.

They do in the US.

On the other hand, Christians want to take away our right to have abortions. Christians want to take away our right to use contraception (even if all dont't, some do). Christians want to outlaw gay sex.

If it happens in the middle of a football game on the 50 yard line, yeah. If it happens in your bedroom how would they know about it? But that doesn't just apply to gay sex.

Christians want to make marriages harder to get and harder to dissolve.

Yes. What's your point?

Christians want to penalize sex outside marriage. Christians want to force my children to profess a belief in a diety in school.

No. That's an individual choice.

Christians want to force my kids to have to have a moment to pray in school.

No, but Christians are being harrassed if they try to take a moment for themselves.

Christians want to force my kids to have to take "creation science."

No. But if Christians are forced to be indoctrinated with Religious Evolution it only seems fair to have equal time.

Christians want to keep my kids from being able to learn about real science. Christians want to keep my kids from being able to learn sex education.

No. Christians learn about these too.

I don't have any kids, but I will, and I don't want you people telling me how to raise them and forcing your false God down their throats.

Ditto from the Christians.

[MrFun]

Just as white, straight men are not suffering systematic discrimination, rest assured that Christians are not being discriminated against.