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Basque independentists create a plan to destroy Spain and France

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  • #136
    The Romans were much better at that than modern nationalist regimes. They barely romanised by force; they used citizenship, cultural integration, settlers and foremost cities to romanise. Most people in the west took roman culture voluntarily, in a slow and long process. For my region, celtic names and clothing style are documented up into the 3rd century (ie about 200 years after formally becoming part of the empire, 250 after de facto being part of the part of the empire); the later, the more limited to rural areas. The greek eastern part of the Empe wasn't romanised at all.

    The Basques weren't "independent", but they, like virtually all peoples, enjoyed a good deal of autonomy - as long as they stuck to their own local business.
    “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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    • #137
      OliverFA:

      Regarding sovereignty association, the details were to be worked out after the referendum. Basically, vote and trust that we keep our promises. That's the main reason the vote was so close, no one really understood sovereignty association, least of all the politicians. Even now Quebec gets a vastly disproportionate amount of federal aid, so you could say we have 'reluctant' Canadians.

      The problem with nationalism is in the definition of what constitutes a nation. Are their any actual nations or are all nations some combination of smaller cultural identities? Spain is no different from Canada in this regard.
      Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
      "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
      2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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      • #138
        Originally posted by Odin
        Fez, quit your fascist ranting. Maybe if your beloved Franco wouldn't of brutally oppressed the Basques Spain wouldn't have all tese terrorists.
        Why don't you inform yourself better before speaking? The independentists appeared before the Civil War. So, how did Franco "brutally oppression" created them? They have been given lots of concessions with the 1978 constitution. They have more auto govern than many regions in the world.

        It is interesting to see how you omit all the murderers, assessinations and "low violence" done by ETA all this years. Are saying that this is a justification for "the Spanish" (to call this side in some way) to attack them? Or does this justification only work in one sense? Hate only brings hate.

        Swallow your pride and give them independance. They are the desendants of the first Europeans, 40,000 years ago and have a unique culture;
        Of course, they where the only ones in Europe 40,000 years ago. All the other Europeans invaded them from Asia That's silly stupid. Is like saying that someone has to behave in some way because it has a concrete surname. Would they be worst if they had been birth 300 km to the South?


        they deserve thier own country. they would be doing a lot better without Madrid breathing down thier thrown.
        In that case why they want to get independents but maintain all the commerce with "Spain"? I thought they didn't need Spain...

        YOU Spaniards are to blame by radicalizing them, now you are paying the price.

        GO BASQUES!!!
        I don't answer to silly comments.
        "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
        "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

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        • #139
          Originally posted by chegitz guevara
          From Amnesty International:
          Spain: Only adequate safeguards will end torture, and claims of torture

          From Human Rights Watch:
          Spain: The Human Rights Impact of Counter-Terrorism Measures

          Evil, evil Spain sounds about right.
          I am not surprised at your arguments. You don't give any real reason. You only do what the people like you know how to do: You accuse the other band to be worst than you. First, as has been appointed, even a biassed organization like AI has doubts about it. Second, Does this justify all the violence perpetred by the independentists?

          Oh, and sadly Fez isn't right. The communists have a lot to say in the current situation, and they are even gulty. They, the smallest party in the basque parliament, are supporting all these assassins.
          "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
          "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

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          • #140
            Originally posted by Fez


            We do what we must.
            But that's not right! Spain is no torturing neither using dirty methods with that terrorists. That's the usual propaganda. I challenge you to present real and unbiassed proves about that.
            "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
            "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

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            • #141
              Re: For GP

              Originally posted by Drake Tungsten


              http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9479/basque.html
              This page is not right. There is no historic evidence of what they say. Navarra has never been part of the basque region, neither the 3 French departments. Of course that's a prove of how legitimate are their claims.
              "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
              "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

              Comment

              • #142
                Originally posted by Odin
                YOU shouldn't be in this thread because the attack on your uncle makes you irrational. This sh!t is your idol Franco's fault, the basques DON'T TRUST YOU GUYS, DUH!
                Again I remind you that the majority of the basques want to remain Spanish. Does this mean that only a part of the basques are real basques?

                Originally posted by Odin
                You sound just like ignorant americans going "why do they hate us" after 9/11.
                In fact that's related. Look ar you, defending the basques. What a curious relation! It is proven that ETA and Al-Qaeda have relations. Why? Because they are part of the same movement. No, they have almost nothing in common, but they have a very important thing in common: They hate capitalism, the freedom it brings and want to destroy the present state of the things, the established system. That's why they (and several other terrorist organizations around the world, Chechenia, Colombia, Phillipines, North Ireland, Corsica...) are related.

                And yes, you are right. That's exactly like 9/11. They attack us and they acuse US of being the agressors. Amazin. Just amazing.

                I bet many are afraid of voting for independance because they are afraid of being shot by goon squads like during Franco's reigime, DUH!
                Who are these squads? The only squads that now exists are the ones that control the vote at the small villages, the ones that send letters to the national parties's members with the address of their children's schools, the ones that ask the basque companies for the "revolutionary tax" (a mafia-like way of acting) and many many more.

                About Franco, that would deserve his own thread. Franco was a dictator. That's evident. But he was not a fascist but a conservative. Even more important, when the national side (not Franco, who by that time was just one of the generals at that side) attacked the Republic was in fact destroyed by the communists, which with the help of Moscow where planning to create the "Spanish Russia". (Something very similar to Chile, or to what Chavez is doing at Venezuela) That's sad to say, but Franco was the lesser evil.
                "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
                "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

                Comment

                • #143
                  Originally posted by Fez
                  I am not saying "Why do they hate us"... in fact the Basque people want to stay with Spain. Did you know that 500,000 people in the Basque region protested against Basque seperatists?
                  [IRONY]
                  Because Spanish Squads of Death forced them, of course...
                  [/IRONY]
                  "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
                  "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

                  Comment

                  • #144
                    Originally posted by OliverFA


                    But that's not right! Spain is no torturing neither using dirty methods with that terrorists. That's the usual propaganda. I challenge you to present real and unbiassed proves about that.
                    Umm I never claimed that. By saying "We do what we must".. means I support terrorist crack downs.

                    There are no dirty methods being used.
                    For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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                    • #145
                      Originally posted by TCO
                      Still not much help. But is "Pais Vasco" the basque area? And what is the French part? And how well does the province correspond to the populace? Oh...at least I know Andorra is safe.

                      And you didn't answer the Roman question. The issue was why they retained a non-Latin language and other areas did not.
                      Ok, I think this one has much more information http://www.ine.es/en/espcif/terr02_en.pdf

                      Basque Country is a term invented, because that land was always called "Vascongadas". Another useless concession. The French part and Navarra were never part of this region.

                      Why they retained a non-Latin language? As far as I know Romans didn't force anyone to adopt their language. People had to use it when speaking with Roman administration and such things, but at their home they could speak what they wanted. In any case I am not an expert so I could be wrong.

                      In any case I challenge anyone to show historic evidences of Spain "conquering" the basque region. Specially considering that that's the zone where Castille and the Spanish language was born.
                      "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
                      "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

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                      • #146
                        I declare my room to be an indpendent country!

                        Trespassers will be shot on sight!
                        urgh.NSFW

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                        • #147
                          Originally posted by Odin
                          They were so isolated the romans didn't bother them.
                          Again, that's propaganda and misinformation. Look at any Roman Empire story book and you will see they where part of the Tarraconensis province.
                          "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
                          "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

                          Comment

                          • #148
                            Originally posted by HershOstropoler
                            The Romans were much better at that than modern nationalist regimes. They barely romanised by force; they used citizenship, cultural integration, settlers and foremost cities to romanise. Most people in the west took roman culture voluntarily, in a slow and long process. For my region, celtic names and clothing style are documented up into the 3rd century (ie about 200 years after formally becoming part of the empire, 250 after de facto being part of the part of the empire); the later, the more limited to rural areas. The greek eastern part of the Empe wasn't romanised at all.

                            The Basques weren't "independent", but they, like virtually all peoples, enjoyed a good deal of autonomy - as long as they stuck to their own local business.
                            I guess colonization might be the analogy here. Rather than Euro-border moving with ethnic cleansing, language training, church affect and all.

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                            • #149
                              The bart about Britannia makes sense. I remember know that most of our Latin words come post-Norman invasion or even later. Not directly from Latin. It is interesting to read about the hundred years or so after the legions left, when the islands struggled to stay semi-civilized.

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                              • #150
                                Nobody answered my Oc question.

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