Oh, that wacky Pat Robertson!

[Al B. Sure!]

facts... haha... i already dared Boris to go into the Polo Grounds and Bushwick saying that he is a homosexual and asking people what they thought of homosexuality... apparently, even he does not have enough trust in the 'facts' to do that survey.

[Giancarlo]

Post something to refute it Albert because other than that you are spewing nothing but nonsense.

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
facts... haha... i already dared Boris to go into the Polo Grounds and Bushwick saying that he is a homosexual and asking people what they thought of homosexuality... apparently, even he does not have enough trust in the 'facts' to do that survey.

well, in that specific region, AS, yes, they are very homophobic. But we all assumed you were talking about the US as a whole. And, as a fact, the US as a whole isnt that homophobic
*points to Boris's stats*

[Ben Kenobi]

Poor beleagured Drake.
Want a hand?

Starting with Plato:

Have to agree with Boris and GePap here. Robertson is way outa line. He does not even represent the religious conservatives in the least. The very religion he spouts his intolerence about is actually based on the concept of tolerence, choice, and understanding. none of which he has.

Please, back up your statement Plato. What constitutes a religious conservative? Where has Robertson strayed from the line? Christianity is much less about 'tolerance' of lifestyles than it is about tolerance of persons. In fact, Christianity by definition is intolerant towards lifestyles by insisting that the Christian way is the best.

[Ben Kenobi]

Boris:

You want a refutation?

Only 39 percent of graduates said "gay lifestyles are morally wrong."

Only? How many of these young people attend church regularly? This figure is close to double that number among young people in the US.

Secondly, people get more conservative as they grow older. You will see the numbers skew against you if you take a sample of this population later on.

71 percent support the right of gays to serve as Scout masters.

So, what? Heterosexuals can abuse children as well. I can see this being a human rights concern.

88 percent support hate crimes legislation to protect gays.

How many have heard a counterargument against hate-crimes legislation? Hands up please. They will favour this on the grounds of human rights, not special rights for homosexuals.

68 percent support adoption by gay and lesbian couples.

Again, how many have heard an effective counterargument against the human rights position?

79 percent support gay employment anti-discrimination laws.

Translate for me Boris, what does this question ask?

I've always wanted to use this quote,

"There are lies, damn lies and statistics."

By rewording the poll questions, I could get very different results.

[Giancarlo]

Obiwan, you didn't prove anything in that post.

[Ben Kenobi]

Fez:

It's tough to prove something when you are working against an argument that also fails to prove anything.

whether you like it or not, the masses are "homophobic"

Is that not AS's challenge?

Boris' statistics fail to prove anything, other than that the young seem to support equal rights for both heterosexuals and homosexuals, on human rights issues.

The study shows astonishingly low support for the homosexual lifestyle among the young, when compared with the rate of churchgoers.

So my question is we need to define what constitutes a homophobe. Last I checked, anyone who opposes the gay lifestyle counts as a homophobe, so that is the only statistic that counts.

So poll the masses, everyone, not just the young, and see whether AS' claim proves true.

Finally, my last statement stands, that if one were to poll with a different question, you would get different results. The only question is how different the results would be, and this we cannot tell until we do another poll.

[Giancarlo]

Who I sleep with shouldn't be anybody's concern.

Now concede and back off.

[Ben Kenobi]

Now concede and back off.

Well I think you at least need to contribute to the discussion of what constitutes a homophobe, since we need to know that before we can even answer Albert's question.

I withdraw citing insufficient proof on either side to back the claims. I need to know Albert's definition before I can proceed.

[Giancarlo]

I couldn't counter his argument as he posted nothing. Really why do you care if somebody else is gay? This question goes to obiwan and Al.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Fez


Who I sleep with shouldn't be anybody's concern.

I promise never to bring the subject up.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Sikander


I promise never to bring the subject up.

Was I addressing you?

[PLATO]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Please, back up your statement Plato. What constitutes a religious conservative? Where has Robertson strayed from the line? Christianity is much less about 'tolerance' of lifestyles than it is about tolerance of persons. In fact, Christianity by definition is intolerant towards lifestyles by insisting that the Christian way is the best.

A religious conservative is one who through his/her actions witnesses to others through actions, acts upon the principle of "Judge not lest ye be judged" and asks "forgiveness for my trespasses as I forgive others their theirs". Perhaps in this case it is better to sate what a religious conservative is not...It is not one who actively prays for ones death (praying for one's soul and praying for God's will to be done is conservative). Take a look at the list of quotes that Boris posted. These are not the statements of a religious conservative...they are the statements of a zealous, self righteous person with a personal agenda.

Furthermore, Christianity is intolerent, but Christians should be tolerent. In order to get the message across we must support that which is right while understanding the human condition and calling for all to come to the cross for redemtion. Nowhere should we step out and say "You are condemed for your actions", but rather "Brother, come to the cross for your actions lead to unhappiness and I will be happy to show you the way through Christ".

Pat Robinson could learn much by simply learning about the religion he says he supports. To me he is not a Christian, but only a zealot. I shall pray for him to see the light, but I certainly will not pray for his death.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
facts... haha... i already dared Boris to go into the Polo Grounds and Bushwick saying that he is a homosexual and asking people what they thought of homosexuality... apparently, even he does not have enough trust in the 'facts' to do that survey.

I believe I silenced you on this point before by pointing out that I could be killed just for being white, well-dressed or breathing in the areas you're thinking about, which doesn't speak well of their attitudes in general, does it?

Besides, I've been to Bushwick several times, as my roommate teaches there. It's not so bad, though I wouldn't hang around at night. Have you ever been to Bushwick, Albert?

You still don't seem to realize that you're talking about a decidedly small minority of the city's population here. Gays are living in Harlem, Washington Heights, Jackson Heights, etc., openly and unmolested. Nobody really has a problem with it. Sure, there are the fringe homophobes who will start ****, but they certainly aren't the norm. One day you'll leave home, son, and realize there's a world of difference between your few blocks and everywhere else.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Please, back up your statement Plato. What constitutes a religious conservative? Where has Robertson strayed from the line? Christianity is much less about 'tolerance' of lifestyles than it is about tolerance of persons. In fact, Christianity by definition is intolerant towards lifestyles by insisting that the Christian way is the best.

Are you quite serious? Do you think the views expressed by Robertson really represent mainstream Christianity? I don't, because I like to believe Christians are not, by and large, such hateful lunatics.

Did you see the choice quotes from Robertson? Tell me, do these sound like they belong in mainstream Christian thought?

"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense, I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist. I can love the people who hold false opinions but I don't have to be nice to them."
--The 700 Club, January 14, 1991

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe one of the core principals of Judeo-Christian philosophy is (or should be) "The Golden Rule." It's certainly a cornerstone of my personal philosophy. So how is being mean and nasty to non-Evangelicals (we're not talking non-Christians here! He means anyone who doesn't believe his particular Christian doctrine!) and calling them "the spirit of the Antichrist" representative of mainstream Christianity?

"[Homosexuals] want to come into churches and disrupt church services and throw blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit in the face of ministers."
--The 700 Club, January 18, 1995

Would you say it's a proper and mainstream Christian stance to accuse a group of people of wanting to do such things, in the absence of their ever having done so or professed to wanting to do so? This is the line Robertson should be holding? Is it a Christian virtue to cast such hateful and false stereotypes?

I'll also point you to his justification of the Biblical massacres of innocent women and children on the part of the Israelites. Now, do you think he's correct, that's okay to slaughter thousands of women and children to prevent them from breeding new generations of potential enemies? Yes or No? If yes, tell me what atrocity you wouldn't commit in the name of God, please. If no, then please explain how Robertson can still be said to express a viewpoint that isn't, frankly, murderous.

If Robertson's views are the mainstream line of Christian conservatives, then I believe anyone is justified in considering such people dangerous fanatics little different than Al-Queda.