Oh, that wacky Pat Robertson!

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Boris:

You want a refutation?

Refutation of what? The poll? Fine, show me a countervailing poll among American teens that shows something different. Otherwise, I still await your supposed "refutation."

Only? How many of these young people attend church regularly? This figure is close to double that number among young people in the US.

Huh? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Read what was said again:

"Only 39 percent of graduates said 'gay lifestyles are morally wrong.'"

That means 61% do not think the 'gay lifestyle' is morally wrong. So much for the homophobic masses. What difference does it make how many go to church? Should only the opinion of churchgoers be counted when guaging national sentiment? Well, your friend Robertson might agree with that, since he plainly feels only Evangelical Christians matter.

Secondly, people get more conservative as they grow older. You will see the numbers skew against you if you take a sample of this population later on.

While somewhat true, the fact remains indisputable that tolerance and acceptance of homosexuals has increased dramatically in the U.S. over the past few decades, especially within the last ten years. Also, as attitudes towards other minority groups in the past have shown, such values do not tend to change in people as they grow older, even if they become more conservative in other regards. The oldest generations are still vastly the most socially conservative. The current middle ones, now adults, have not become remotely as socially conservative. They have maintained, by and large, attitudes of tolerance.

So, what? Heterosexuals can abuse children as well. I can see this being a human rights concern.

What does it have to do with child abuse? The Scouts exclude gays on moral opposition to homosexuality, and a sizeable majority of young people are opposed to that attitude. Ergo, they don't think there's something immoral about a homosexual that warrants them being excluded from such positions. I have to wonder why you brought up abuse?

How many have heard a counterargument against hate-crimes legislation? Hands up please. They will favour this on the grounds of human rights, not special rights for homosexuals.

Arguments from right wingers against such legislation invariably employ the red herring that is granting "special rights" to homosexuals. Considering not one piece of such legislation applies only to gays, put rather applies to everyone, such claims are patent nonsense.

Again, how many have heard an effective counterargument against the human rights position?

Effective or sensible? Too different things. Once again, people claim "special rights" for gays, when, in fact, such rules apply to everyone, not just gays.

Translate for me Boris, what does this question ask?

I've always wanted to use this quote,

"There are lies, damn lies and statistics."

By rewording the poll questions, I could get very different results.

Ah yes, the "those poll numbers conflict with my worldview, ergo I will claim they asked the wrong questions" argument. Fanciful.

I'd ask you know to put your money where your mouth is and show nationwide polls that show most people oppose homosexuality. You'll note that AS claimed the "masses" were "homophobic." I think the two sources I posted (did you read the link to the 2001 Gallup poll?) adequatedly support my position that such an assertion is patently untrue. Most people in the U.S. are tolerant of homosexuality. I'll quote the most significant poll question from that:

"52 percent believe homosexuality is an acceptable "alternative lifestyle."

What does this mean? A majority of Americans, in random sample, believe there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. And that's from 2 years ago, so the numbers have gone up since then (especially as the oldest, most conservative generations die off). In a recent poll, Americans were split 48-47 on the issue of legalizing gay marriage! Now compare all of these to polls from years and years ago, and the trend is clear: By and large, Americans are becoming more accepting of gays. It's the way it is, and crying foul because you think the questions are loaded is just a silly diversionary tactic.

[Sava]

Pat Robertson is in trouble... he's got both Fez and myself against him. Beware to those who oppose both Fez and myself!

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by GePap

Oh bo ho ho.. I remmber all those times you told people off for wanting Saddam Hussein dead..I mean the gaul of those people to which anyone harm.....

I dont mean to trivialize your point GePap but I did laugh out loud

Those damn frenchies!

[SpencerH]

As far as I can tell from my daily interactions with Baptists and Gays here in the great state of Alabama, Robertson is on the fringe of baptist views. Most people I know dont agree with homosexuality, but they seem to be polite despite those opinions.

On a side issue, where's Jimmy Swaggert these days? I used to watch him before football on sundays, he was one funny SOB! I have siiinnnedd aginst the lord! :tears: :tears:

[Al B. Sure!]

yes, obi-wan, "homophobe" means someone who doesn't like the gay lifestyle... i dont think they should be called homophobic (thats why i put it in quotations) because homophobic means fear of gays and people aren't afraid of gays like claustrophobic people are afraid of small spaces.. (ie- gay guy approaches... i'm hyper-ventilating )

K-Man:

well, in that specific region, AS, yes, they are very homophobic. But we all assumed you were talking about the US as a whole. And, as a fact, the US as a whole isnt that homophobic

i was trying to say the lower middle class and ethnic minorities is very "homophobic".


Boris:

I believe I silenced you on this point before by pointing out that I could be killed just for being white, well-dressed or breathing in the areas you're thinking about, which doesn't speak well of their attitudes in general, does it?

i dont see how that silences me... what does you being white, well-dressed, or breathing have to do with their attitudes towards homosexuals?

Have you ever been to Bushwick, Albert?

i've been to worse

What does this mean? A majority of Americans, in random sample, believe there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. And that's from 2 years ago, so the numbers have gone up since then (especially as the oldest, most conservative generations die off).

a majority? but where? there's something about polls that got to be kept in mind... trailer trash and people in the barrios and the inner city are never polled... any poll results is skewed by this lack of poorer people.

[Sava]

trailer trash and people in the barrios and the inner city are never polled...

I don't give a sh1t what trash thinks...

[Al B. Sure!]

yeah that's Sava... the champion of the proletariat....

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
yes, obi-wan, "homophobe" means someone who doesn't like the gay lifestyle... i dont think they should be called homophobic (thats why i put it in quotations) because homophobic means fear of gays and people aren't afraid of gays like claustrophobic people are afraid of small spaces.. (ie- gay guy approaches... i'm hyper-ventilating )

"Phobic" is not confined to "fear" even in psychology. Being phobic of something can also just denote an irrational mistrust, dislike or hatred. "Homophobe" is certainly, as far as I can see, the most apt label for people who oppose equal and fair treatment of homosexuals.

i was trying to say the lower middle class and ethnic minorities is very "homophobic".

Moreso than wealthier, more educated whites? Certainly. But changing in a positive direction? Absolutely. The last significant survey of attitudes among African-Americans towards gays did show a large amount of mistrust and hatred on the part of Black men towards gays. However, this survey was conducted in 1995. It would be interesting to see how attitudes have changed since then, since they have changed in all other aspects of society in America. There's even a famous black gay rapper emerging now.

i dont see how that silences me... what does you being white, well-dressed, or breathing have to do with their attitudes towards homosexuals?

That wasn't the point, the point was that the areas you mention are rife with crime and other problems. I could get into serious trouble being there for any of the above things, before anyone ever learned I was homosexual. This demonstrates that the attitudes in such areas aren't to be taken as any serious measure of common attitudes. They are extreme.

i've been to worse

But you haven't been to Bushwick, and I have, ergo you speak from ignorance. You make the assumption all urban minority neighborhoods are as derelict and intolerant as yours. They certainly are not, and I have the experience to prove it that you don't. The gay population in Harlem is burgeoning, right alongside a black population that continues to experience a neighborhood cultural revitalization.

a majority? but where? there's something about polls that got to be kept in mind... trailer trash and people in the barrios and the inner city are never polled... any poll results is skewed by this lack of poorer people.

First, random sample polls will reach anyone with a phone. Second, considering urban centers have been at the forefront of adopting gay civil rights initiatives by huge margins, that leaves us with two conclusions: Either you're (unsubstantiated) assertion that city minorities are hugely anti-gay are false, or that those "masses" not only do not participate in polls, but do not vote. I'm certainly willing to believe the later, but then Sava's indelicate point is valid. If they don't participate, their point of view doesn't matter a bit.

It's funny how Falwell, Robertson and the like have carried on for years in a similar fashion about the "silent majority." They claimed there was an unspoken multitude who, for some reason, just weren't being heard who would suddenly rise up and overturn socially progressive legislation. Considering they've been predicting this uprising for over 20 years, and in the meantime the country has moved inexorably towards more progress civil rights laws and attitudes of tolerance and social progressivism, I'd have to say their claim is just wishful thinking.

[Guynemer]

Resolved: Pat Robertson is a ****ing jackass.

Anyone opposed?

.....

So why all the bickering?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by obiwan18
They will favour this on the grounds of human rights, not special rights for homosexuals.

People like me and Boris oppose special rights and gay rights -- rather, we advocate equal rights regardless of sexual orientation.

But at least you made a fallicious effort to distort the fair demands of mainstream gay society -- pathetic, but an effort, nevertheless.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Sava
Pat Robertson is in trouble... he's got both Fez and myself against him. Beware to those who oppose both Fez and myself!

You know I hate it when we agree.

I remember somebody like Robertson in my high school.. he just wouldn't shut up about me. A jackass who should be ignored. He serves nobody any good and whoever defends that hatred is wrong and utterly misguided by ultra radical religious nonsense.

[Al B. Sure!]

There's even a famous black gay rapper emerging now.

who? where do you come up with this?

one thing though that i'm questioning is exactly how homophobic do you think i'm claiming people are... i'm not saying the average person is going to want to beat the **** out of you for being gay... or even that he would do it if your flirted with him... i am saying that most americans are slightly bothered (not quite the word but you know what i mean... they feel weird) by being around gay people... plenty of people get over this weirdness by spewing jokes about gays (kind of like whats on Will & Grace for example... making fun of gay people kind of so they won't be so weird to be around). i really doubt that any statistics or whatever disproves this and i think you probably agree that the attitude of the common person, in the city or not, is that they are kind of weirded out by gay people even if they are willing to let gays have most rights except for marriage.

[Giancarlo]

Speer, you don't speak for the lower class, middle class or anybody for that matter. Your hatred is sickening.

[Al B. Sure!]

Guy:

Resolved: Pat Robertson is a ****ing jackass.

Anyone opposed?

despite his tendency for intolerance and to be extreme, his over-all Christian message is hardly something of a jackass... i think people can learn a lot from Robertson, Falwell, etc. and their lesser known Christian, muslim or NoI counterparts. sure they are prone to say extreme **** but if you ignore that, you got a message of live a clean life and lift yourself up through faith

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
i think people can learn a lot from Robertson, Falwell, etc.