The Sweetness and Light Game

[Bob_Smurf42]

Finally...

Here is the save. I will post a log tomorrow, after I get some sleep.

[Bob_Smurf42]

Been busy the last few days. Playing now, will post in a couple hours or so. I'm up in a couple games at CFC also.

[Bob_Smurf42]

I will play tonight or tomorrow night. All looks good.

[Bloody Monk]

SCG,

Good turnset. Things are looking good and the long period of "perfection" is well begun.

We can squeeze in another city between Pool and Beggar, at (110, 224), to give another harbor, boat builder, if someone gets bored.

I too noticed how the AI moved from Enthusiastic to Hostile overnight. We will need to be careful to plan ahead for any swapping by spending our treasury before contact.

Monk

[SCG]

again, we have lots of units on goto? and with as little as our island is, why??? last save also had units on goto as well from the SGs. make note of where units are headed towards and take off goto.

A couple of items will be finished this turn - harbor in SM, caravan in PoG, Harbor in BV might not be the best choice with aquaduct and library still needed, 3 other caravans in build and of course INC in MC with 3 vans en route. we probably could use a few more roads - beggarsville still only has the roads i built millinia ago and is using unroaded grasslands

we have 1 aquaduct and 1 uni, 2 libraries, 4 marketplaces, 3 harbors, and all cities have temples.

1260: get units off goto, tour of workers
1280: start silk towards romans, gems towards americans, minor worker adjustments, will need 132 gold instead of 3rd caravan and can get Ikes 1 turn earlier
1300: deliver 2 food and finish ikes, minor worker adjustments. take another glance at AI techs, only tech AI has that we don't is bridgebuilding and physics. germans have great library, so try a couple trades with the germans. see that they are hostile so speed along harbor in Maxwell's Hammer. they demand sanitation, but still icy... chemistry and theory of gravity get them to neutral, but out of techs... contact romans - gift invention to get to receptive, trade for physics (sanitation) and bridge building (horseback riding), enthusiastic so share maps they tire of the conversation.
Romans now taking econ, Deutsch decide to play hookie from school, Babs experimenting with gunpowder..., spanish surveying bridgebuilding, Yanks exploring concept of higher education, indians dying to learn about medicine. contact indians, gift all techs to indians and share maps, they ignore concept of alliances and break off talks. beakers started at 1155 and end at 1050 with 2 tech gains, indians now not researching anything
1320: Isaac Newton's College in Mean City. americans discover university, indians start and abandon Ikes. everyone but spanish and Yanks researching gunpowder atm. indians drop from enthusiastic to hostile on the turn change... rush harbors in both beggarsville and maxwell's hammer. hope babs discover gunpowder soon to speed research as germans are back to hostile as well. of course germans revolted so they could talk to me so prob a ways away now. need 226 gold to finish sewer next turn, so raise taxes slightly, dampen science a little more for celebration in Mean City.
1340: rush sewer in Mean City, side effect is celebration in Pool of Grace, which is building a food caravan and needs an aquaduc, not enough gold for its aquaduct this turn. several more cities could celebrate with 40% lux... many cities need marketplaces too... start tickling caravans and rush harbor.
1360: Sewer System in Stickie Meanie, more finishing of caravans. Getting all of the AI to revolt from the rep govts, plus all the tech gifting, plus my lowering of science to start celebrations has caused for a general slowdown. only the AI i didn't contact has gained techs, and by trading with each other...
1400: Silk (d,231) stickie meanie to Antium, Gems (xd, 60, Beggarsville) Gems (xd, 105, Mean City) to Antium, finish bank in Mean City, Aquaduct in pool of grace and beggarsville, marketplace in stickie meanie. considered continuing on to Americans, but was still 14 turns away...
1420: Gunpowder choose Explosives (debated between that and Econ, but econ should get discovered by someone sometime hopefully). rush harbor in Green Meanie
1440: Coal (d,42) to Maxwell's Hammer from Heaven's gate (it replaced a route with Mean City???), rush marketplace in Maxwell's Hammer.
1460: Germans discover gunpowder - oops, meant to gift that to them so they could make another discovery...


notes to successor: Veii demands gold (Big Bad Bill), and a delivery from Green Meanie should be produce well, even undemanded. Bill will celebrate with a marketplace, but needs a harbor to grow - should be able to make that gold delivery really worth it Stickie meanie is celebrating but needs the aquaduct. Pool of Grace will need sewer to grow past 12 next turn, Beggarsville also needs one to grow in 2 turns. Maxwell's hammer needs aquaduct to grow after next turn. Heaven's Gate also should be able to celebrate with just a marketplace, but needs the aquaduct to grow... Mean City should be able to grow to 22 a couple turns after hitting 21 (18 now, and when at 19 should not have any specialists to keep growing) as i saved the food supply. A complete lack of white goods did hamper initial growth as most cities only had temples. I would liked to have had more ships and more caravans, but there was only so much that could be done, so i put the emphasis on growth. Now that we are getting a few more harbors and marketplaces, libraries should be on the build list along with getting back to caravans (and lowering taxes )

things go slow when you get invited to dinner several nights in a row at a house without a computer

and of course the save

[-Jrabbit]

Preliminary dubbing = Scouser Rules.

[Scouse Gits]

Yes - rah rules for Succession Games are a must...

Seems I got some games confused with my blithering about Poly, Mono & Mike - will spend a term at The Institute.
No harm done with the rehoming - we just don't do it again - nice to see the newer members of the Institute giving a robust defense to our olf fartish robust criticism

SG[1]

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Old n Slow
In my defense,

Noting the fine line between cheating, sleazing & good play I opted for the ‘whatever isn’t explicitly denied is permitted’ sense of rules -- most of the succession games I’ve seen don’t allow restarts, so that was OK by me. I’ve seen some examples of good play (Xinning, use of oedo years) which are now taken for granted. Other techniques, say black clicking, may be considered taboo by some, but might be OK by others. I opted to rehome the camels seeing no prohibition -- so with the adjusted rules, no more rehoming for this game for me. (We will, of course also ignore the comment about the “rehoming of the Salt caravan in SG’s post -- it must’ve been a typo.)

You correctly point out the need for a set of rules for SXN Games.

I don't think that was a typo. Read it as, 'we just delivered a van that had been rehomed by someone previously,' and it is very, very clear.

Originally posted by Old n Slow

One can only wonder if the extra coins from those markets led to a rushed camel that brought in beakers greater than the beakers that would have been produced by those same investments in the form of libraries.

I think you miss the concept of annual maintenance. Except for special situations, science will be the prominent slider, until Fundy. With science at 70%, those markets are a drain of 1g/turn. One wonders, what extra coins??

In the long run, we will need those markets. It is just a question of sequence and remembering the Big Picture while making decisions with long term effects. Science at zero was a special situation and should not have influenced the decision, IMHO.

"Future Tech"...that's a good one.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

SG[1],

One thing that comes through from the post by Old n Slow is that we need a SXN Game version of rah rules, for the benifit of newer players.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Hi SG[1]!!

You could be right about favoring growth of the SSC first. I thought about it from both points of view and decided it was likely a push. I came down on the side of upgrades and delaying the bump of Lux slider until more cities are ready. But, having Sir Ike and a fatter SSC sooner would also be very for our research rate.

I don't understand the comment about Poly/Mono/Mike's. You say we have no need of Poly, but we already have Poly

If you mean, we have no need of hurrying to act on having Poly to get Mono for Mike's, well We already have Mike's.

I'm sure you had a solid point that I am missing. Maybe the statement was a bit sparse and the unstated details would be helpful...please.

I will submit to Institute retrainning if you insist.

Monk

[Old n Slow]

In my defense,

Noting the fine line between cheating, sleazing & good play I opted for the ‘whatever isn’t explicitly denied is permitted’ sense of rules -- most of the succession games I’ve seen don’t allow restarts, so that was OK by me. I’ve seen some examples of good play (Xinning, use of oedo years) which are now taken for granted. Other techniques, say black clicking, may be considered taboo by some, but might be OK by others. I opted to rehome the camels seeing no prohibition -- so with the adjusted rules, no more rehoming for this game for me. (We will, of course also ignore the comment about the “rehoming of the Salt caravan in SG’s post -- it must’ve been a typo.)

Regarding the switch of Libraries to Markets -- I had three choices -- a) leave the builds as libraries, knowing that upon their completion, they were going to be worthless (at zero science) for the while; b) switch to camels & lose 50% of the shields invested to date; or c) switch to markets, were they would produce under the high tax rates imposed & add thereafter. Would have switched them to camels if the shield boxes were only somewhat filled, but there was considerable investment to date at the time & I rushed a couple of them anyway to switch them over.

One can only wonder if the extra coins from those markets led to a rushed camel that brought in beakers greater than the beakers that would have been produced by those same investments in the form of libraries.

Point of clarification -- we don’t want the Statue of Liberty (and if correct, does this also imply that we walk around the city that has it until the very end, or do we raze that self same city for their construction of a pagan idol?)

Otherwise -- great work guys -- with good management of the tech tree will we be able to postpone Fundy until future tech?

[Scouse Gits]

Yes there are several possible world views -- we felt that growth was of higher importance than Leos - after all we will eventually be building a modern army and anticipate that Leo will be dead long before 1850 - hence our lack of enthusiasm for that WoW - we had thought to bypass it and go for Ike's. Similarly, we have no need of Poly - no one had Mono when we were playing - once it pops out we can get it and win the race to Mike's.
Only the Romans are within realistic trading range, so we had discounted any other trading partners.
We agree that getting fundy early would be shooting ourselves in the foot.
The glory of this game is that there are so many different ways of skinning every cat.

SG[1]

[SCG]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Perhaps SG[1] will clarify. As I read the rule, we are restricted from going to war until both 1850 and a hard Fundy. But, we can research and change to Fundy sooner.

Monk

originally posted by SGs in concert
Before 1850AD and Hard Fundamentalism

* No attacking except on Holy Home Continent - may repulse invasions
* No military land units or Settlers or Engineers may leave the Holy Home Continent
* Any goverment at any time, BUT once Fundamentalism is discovered we MUST take it at the next oedo year and stay in it thereafter
* All Wonders except SoL - only the except SoL part is mandatory

I read that saying we change on the first available oedo year, reguardless of whether its before or after 1850. Therefore, since its still quite a ways away, I won't be researching fundy We have more important techs to get.

And on a side note, i do read the rules as saying we are to start building an army before we depart, and it would be handy to be in fundy at that point (maybe around 1820-1830), as the support costs are much lower and we have the tithes.

[Bloody Monk]

Perhaps SG[1] will clarify. As I read the rule, we are restricted from going to war until both 1850 and a hard Fundy. But, we can research and change to Fundy sooner.

Monk

[SCG]

have the game now, will look over it tomorrow. I don't forsee switching to Fundy for a while longer as its only 1260ad, and we can't depart for another 6 centuries, one of which will have 50 turns (1750-1850); we should hopefully have most of the techs we need by then and still be able to build up an army