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  • @Agricola

    Originally posted by AGRICOLA
    What follows is in two parts. Part A briefly summarizes the most significant changes that Colwyn has made so that RF 1.5 is considerably more difficult than RF 1.4. Part B covers the improvements to RF 1.5 that have been suggested by contributors to this thread.

    The attachment contains zipped saves from RF 1.4 (May ’42) and RF 1.5 (Dec ’43) which illustrate how the use of various existing loopholes can distort both scenarios.


    A. Major changes from RF 1.4 to RF 1.5

    I. Eliminated the “Too many units” problem.
    Changed the .scn file by thinning out the rear echelons of the German forces by ~200 of the weakest units (Romanian Inf, Wehrmacht, Stu III G etc.).


    II. Replaced the Supply Convoys from UK with shipments of military units.
    This has greatly reduced the money available for rush buying and made it mandatory that a player develop the productivity of Soviet cities. IMO, despite my initial misgivings, this change has significantly improved the game.


    III. Eliminated the event (Winter ‘41-’42) that spawns two Partisans for every Red Army that is killed.
    A player can easily build 150+ inexpensive, weak Red Army during the winter of ‘41-’42, stack them up in front of Soviet cities to get them killed off and end up with 300+ much stronger Partisans far behind the German lines. With airlifted and locally RB reinforcements this Partisan army is strong enough and large enough to rapidly conquer all of Europe in ‘42.


    IV. Reduced the 2-turn movement capability of all Soviet aircraft to 1 turn, shortened their ranges, made them extremely expensive and eliminated their attack capabilities in winter.
    This prevents the use of aircraft to form a defensive line that blocks German movement. It also means that aircraft play a minor role in RF 1.5 and that Soviet units have to operate without air cover.


    V. ABSOLUTELY prohibited the selling of AT Defenses.

    The RF 1.4 save shows why this was necessary.

    1. Because selling AT Defenses is not forbidden in RF 1.4, it is possible to employ a scorched earth strategy of razing all possible cities from Riga to Odessa rather than letting them fall into German hands.
    2. As there are no German-held cities within Luftwaffe range of the Soviet front line, Luftwaffe aircraft no longer pose a threat to the Soviets.
    3. With the Luftwaffe threat removed, the only defensive forces that the Soviets need are ~60 La-5 fighters to form a picket line whose ZOC stops German ground units from advancing. The only unit that the La-5’s need to worry about is the occasional Sdkfz 4x20mm Flak.
    4. Meanwhile Il-2 Shturmoviks can have a field day shooting up German ground units. They are in no hurry and can afford to wait for German units to move onto ground with no defensive bonus.
    5. In the Rostov area, most German units are spawned in squares where there used to be cities. With the cities gone, they become sitting ducks, without even a fortress to protect them. Il-2’s can regularly kill stacks of 20-50+ freshly spawned units.

    It is a very cosy situation for the Soviets who can chop up German units at their leisure with minimal risk of losing any of their own units, a far cry from the dangers the Soviets actually faced in the summer of ’42.


    VI. Added new house rules, both to close loopholes and make the scen more dificult.




    B. Recommended changes to Colwyn’s Red Front 1.5

    I. Minimize Soviet amphibious capabilities by making them unable to build any ships except those spawned by events in UK.

    At present, players can use three major rivers to safely freight units into the heart of Germany in winter when the Luftwaffe cannot attack. This possibility was suggested by Xin Yu in his excellent essay on Red Front strategy. Although I have taken advantage of this in my games (see the RF 1.5 save), there is no way that it could actually have happened. AFAIK, the Soviets carried out only minor amphibious operations in WWII.

    Proposed remedy:
    Remove the Steel tech from Soviet tech list to make it impossible to build any ships. I would appreciate opinions on whether the Soviets should keep the freighters that they have at the beginning of the scen in the Baltic (2) and Black (3) Seas. Enterprising players could make considerable use these few ships for small but not unimportant amphibious operations. Also, should the Soviets start with a number of freighters in the Caspian Sea and on the Volga for transporting units to the front?


    II. Make both the battle for Stalingrad and the Caucasus invasion events that the Soviets cannot avoid.

    Stalingrad was one of the pivotal battles of the war, yet in the RF 1.5 saved game the Soviets managed to avoid it. This should not be possible, the battle was too critical to be circumvented by players.

    In the RF 1.5 save, the pontoon bridge was taken out by 152mm Howies (IIRC, 10 were lost). German units that subsequently spawned on the site of the bridge had to cross minefields to get to Stalingrad. Howies in Kotelnikovo had a field day using the immobilized German units for target practice. There was no battle for Stalingrad or any threat to the Caucasus.

    Proposed remedy:
    Change events so that at least some German units are spawned on the east bank of the Don, change the types of units spawned to include more units that can ignore city walls, randomize spawning locations and, maybe, use CHANGETERRAIN events to remove possible minefields. In other words, do everything possible to ensure that Soviets will have to fight for Stalingrad and defend the Caucasus.


    III. Try to make Kursk ’43 (Zitadelle) a significant factor in the game.

    There seems to be general agreement that this phase of the war could be be improved.

    The Kursk problem may be insoluble because there is no guarantee that the Soviets will have advanced to the area where the units for Zitadelle are created. We may have to accept the fact that units created for Zitadelle may start out a considerable distance from the nearest Soviet units. The RF 1.5 Dec ’43 save shows that the last of the Zitadelle units are still west and southwest of Voronezh. In ’43, my Soviet units never left the protection of their cities and minefields and had no difficulty in destroying the units spawned for Zitadelle.

    Proposed remedy:
    Increase the number of spawned units . . . . . and hope for the best.


    IV. Make the defence of Germany in ’44 and ’45 stronger, more active and more of a challenge for players.

    Dr Kellogg and others feel that this warrants tweaks such as:

    1. Invisible Volkssturm which appear after German cities are taken; no serious danger but really annoying.

    2. Extraordinary strong Waffen-SS -high movement or invisble flag- which appear very late in the game and which try to defend their country till the bitter end.

    3. The chance of counter-attacks by the Germans if Soviets stop their advance or are not able to take major cities within a certain timeframe (in this case the Germans would have had enough time to organize and re-group their defense...)

    Proposed remedy:
    The German defences can be improved by starting the scen with all or selected German homeland cities already with a Hedgehog or a similar static, strong defensive unit so that events need not be wasted creating them. In anticipation of the end game, cities that will be designated as “fortresses” in ’44 or ’45 can start with 2 or more such strong defensive units. In addition, any of the above suggestions or variants of them can be implemented.

    Possible drawbacks include that #1 may require the equivalent of a German partisan unit which could not use the existing partisan slot because there already are both Soviet and Yugoslav partisans. # 3 may use up an excessive amount of events space if used extensively.


    V. Create a race for Berlin between the Allies and the Soviets.

    At present, RF 1.4 and RF 1.5 use change terrain from industry to ruins or plains to simulate the effect of the Allied strategic bombing of German cities (summer ’43 to end of scen). Although historically correct, this has a minimal effect on German production. For most of this period, German cities convert production to gold. Also, starting in late summer ’43 and continuing to the end of the scen, G.I.’s and Sherman tanks are spawned, first in Italy and then in central Europe. These are too few and too weak to capture German cities.

    Proposed remedy:
    Create Allied heavy bombers (B-17’s, B-24’s or Lancasters) powerful enough to destroy city defenders, first in Italy and then in Germany. These could show up in Italy during the summer of ’43 and in Germany at some time in late ’44. If the bombers can be made to attack nearby cities (this should work in TOT because in Market Garden freshly spawned German aircraft make a beeline for the nearest Allied unit or city) then, together with additional G.I.’s and Shermans, they should be able to start capturing Italian cities in ’44 and German cities in early ’45.


    VI. Eliminate the T-34/76 to JS-2 and La-5 to P-47 loopholes.

    These loopholes appear if players do not follow the sequence of actions expected by the scenario. The loopholes exist in both RF 1.4 and 1.5.

    1. The sequence of Soviet tank improvements is supposed to start with T-34/76 which is upgraded to T-34/85 when the Soviet Armament Industry (Leonardo’s) wonder is built.
    2. If a player does NOT build the Soviet Armament Industry wonder and continues to build and play with T-34/76’s, in May ’44 his inexpensive T-34/76’s are replaced by JS-2’s, a considerably better and more expensive tank because the T-34/76 slot is occupied by the JS-2 in RULES 7, 8 and 9.
    3. The La-5 to P-47 loophole has a similar origin. A player who does not build the wonder or research the tech for the Yak-9 will end up with an unintended upgrade of his La-5’s to P-47 Thunderbolts in RULES 9 (Summer ’45).

    Proposed remedy:
    Put the JS-2 and P-47 in new slots rather than use existing T-34/76 and La-5 slots.


    VII. Relocate Labor Brigades to where Nemo has them at the start of RF 1.4 and restore the number to 16. Ensure that all LB’s go “active” during the “ghost” turn.

    In RF 1.5 the author advocates that the Russians found new cities in Siberia, has positioned Labor Brigades to do so and suggests that this is necessary to win the scenario. I tested this idea and, unfortunately, the results do not agree with his ideas. Expanding existing cities is a much more efficient way to increase production than building additional cities in the Siberian forest.


    VIII. Change square (50,28) from ocean to land.

    This is a very subtle change made by Colwyn in RF 1.5 that allows players to create an ocean passage from UK to the Baltic (see RF 1.5 save). If the Soviets are to be unable to carry out amphibious operations in the Redux, freighters from the UK must be kept out of the Baltic.


    IX. Give units a choice in what they pillage.

    The choice exists in RF 1.4 but I’m not certain whether there is or is not a choice in RF 1.5. When I had all the relevant RF 1.5 files in one folder, there was no choice. Farmland and irrigation were automatically pillaged before a road could be destroyed. When I moved the files to a new folder, there was choice. I never did bother to figure out why and played the scen with selective pillaging. My rationale was that even the dumbest Soviet lieutenant would know that blowing up bridges and culverts would delay the Germans more than torching or trampling down cornfields.


    X. Include the following house rules from both RF 1.4 and RF 1.5.

    A. No disbanding of units (except freighters).
    B. No chaining of freighters. This increases the chance that freighters may be sunk. However, as freighters carry military units rather than Supply Convoys, the loss of a ship is no longer a catastrophy.
    C. No incremental rush buying.
    D. No airlifting units from UK to the USSR,
    E. No selling of antitank defences in order to carry out a scorched earth strategy of razing cities rather than have them fall into German hands.
    F. No unit movement, sales or build queue changes allowed in the phantom June 1941 turn.
    G. No moving or rehoming of fortified positions.
    H. No building of airfields as substitutes for RR.
    I. No selling of NKVD Headquarters
    I thought I use this post as a basis for work.
    Remove ~ 200 units was already part of your ideas at the time.
    I have modified the first Events file to avoid creating too many units compared to units killed.

    Comment


    • Nice work in the comparison esp noticing the change in terrain lol

      The other things I did were:

      Increase number of Hedgehogs in german cities to make them tougher to conquer.

      Reduced movement of Howizers from 2 to 1.33 as realistically SU-76's did this and artillery needs to be brought up to a city before attacking.

      Changes the ownership of late game ruins in germany from soviet control to US, so the soviet player can't use them to hide units.

      NKVD, blocking units unable to move/retreat for 41 ie mv 0

      I reduced aircraft unit fuel to 1 to stop the player using them as blocking units.

      Unit stats accross the board were changed a fair bit ie making machine guns a bit stronger and partisans weaker.

      I would suggest/concer following should occur in my redfront 1.5:

      Change a terrain river leading into Germany from Romania to stop the payer from frieighting in units in winter. Leave freighters as traditionaly the soviet union used heaps of these moving units along the volga throughout the war.

      Add in another land bridge to Stalingrad.

      Remove emphisis on developing east urals as a need for victory, although the SU did have plans for mining these area's before war broke out.

      TOT should allow addtional improvements esp with units as civ2 did have limitations. but i would strongly suggest you use the rf 1.5 map and rules and just makes the many changes from that as quite a bit of play testing went in esp with unit stats etc.
      Last edited by Colwyn; October 30, 2007, 19:30.
      ---------------------------------------------
      Pavlov Zangalis - Hero of the capture of Berlin RFDG.
      ---------------------------------------------

      Comment


      • @Colwyn
        Thank you for these details.
        I took note of these changes. I will study the stat in version 1.5.

        Any other suggestion is welcome.

        Comment


        • current progression :

          * Eliminated the “Too many units” problem.
          ------------------------------------------
          - Changed number of units spawned by the Events file to have "one unit killed = one units created".
          - Changed the .scn file by thinning out the rear echelons of the German forces by ~170 of the weakest units
          (Romanian Inf, Wehrmacht, Stu III G etc.).

          * Replaced the Supply Convoys from UK with shipments of military units.
          -----------------------------------------------------------------------
          - Supply convoys from UK is replaced by Valentine tank.

          * ABSOLUTELY prohibited the selling of AT Defenses.
          ---------------------------------------------------
          - Changed the game.txt file to prohibit selling city's improvements.

          * No selling of antitank defences in order to carry out a scorched earth strategy of razing cities rather than have them
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          fall into German hands.
          -------------------------
          - cf the previous §.

          * Minimize Soviet amphibious capabilities by making them unable to build any ships except those spawned by events in UK.
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          - Remove the Steel tech from Soviet tech list to make it impossible to build any ships.
          - Make the Steel tech impossible to research from tech tree in the Rules files.

          * No disbanding of units (except freighters).
          ---------------------------------------------
          - Changed General flags in Advanced unit fields in the rules files.

          Comment


          • A question :
            Reduced the 2-turn movement capability of all Soviet aircraft to 1 turn.
            Is this for all Soviet aircraft? Fighters and bombers?

            Comment


            • progression :

              * Eliminated the event (Winter ‘41-’42) that spawns two Partisans for every Red Army that is killed.
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              - Remove the Event which creates the second partisan.

              * ABSOLUTELY prohibited the selling of AT Defenses, antitank defences, NKVD Headquarters, etc...
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              - Changed the game.txt file to prohibit selling city's improvements.

              * Eliminate the T-34/76 to JS-2 and La-5 to P-47 loopholes.
              -----------------------------------------------------------
              - Put the JS-2 and P-47 in new slots rather than use existing T-34/76 and La-5 slots.

              * Eliminate Refugees to G.I. and KV-1 Heavy Tank to M4A3 "Sherman" loopholes.
              -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
              - Put the G.I. and M4A3 "Sherman" in new slots rather than use existing Refugees and KV-1 Heavy Tank slots.

              Comment


              • Another question:
                had I to remove two patisans (instead of one) in the winter of 41-42?

                Comment


                • @ MacGalleo

                  Partisans:
                  I would suggest eliminating the Red Army for Partisan exchange, even on a one for one basis. A determined player could still end up with 150+ Partisans in the Ukraine by the spring of 1942. Why not continuously generate a few Partisans randomly just as a nuisance for the Germans?

                  No selling of city improvements:
                  This one may not work if convoys carry units rather than Freights as in RF 1.4. There may not be nearly enough cash available for the Soviets to build vital improvements and units in 1941 and 1942. This is a critical point and would have to be playtested very carefully .

                  Also, with no razing of cities (very effective in RF 1.4 but verboten in 1.5) the selling of city improvements is the only way to model the Soviet scorched earth strategy which included moving entire industrial plants and anything else of value to Siberia or simply destroying it to keep it out of German hands.

                  One might allow improvement sale in 1941 but not later. On the other hand, the Soviets subsequently did cart off anything of value from captured cities in '44 and '45.

                  Aircraft in winter:
                  In all winter rules, Colwyn has made all a/c with A=0, so they cannot attack. In view of Russian winter conditions, I found this to be a good change.

                  Please check your PM.
                  Excerpts from the Manual of the Civilization Fanatic :

                  Money can buy happiness, just raise the luxury rate to 50%.
                  Money is not the root of all evil, it is the root of great empires.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MacGalleo

                    * ABSOLUTELY prohibited the selling of AT Defenses, antitank defences, NKVD Headquarters, etc...
                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    - Changed the game.txt file to prohibit selling city's improvements.
                    It doesn't work...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by AGRICOLA

                      Partisans:
                      I would suggest eliminating the Red Army for Partisan exchange, even on a one for one basis. A determined player could still end up with 150+ Partisans in the Ukraine by the spring of 1942. Why not continuously generate a few Partisans randomly just as a nuisance for the Germans?
                      Ok I will eliminate the red army for partisan exchange.
                      To continuously generate a few Partisans randomly just as a nuisance for the Germans is a good idea...

                      Originally posted by AGRICOLA
                      No selling of city improvements:
                      This one may not work if convoys carry units rather than Freights as in RF 1.4. There may not be nearly enough cash available for the Soviets to build vital improvements and units in 1941 and 1942. This is a critical point and would have to be playtested very carefully .
                      My solution doesn't work....
                      You're right, I will let the possibllity of selling improvement...
                      No selling AT Defenses, antitank defences...will stay a house rule.

                      Originally posted by AGRICOLA
                      Aircraft in winter:
                      In all winter rules, Colwyn has made all a/c with A=0, so they cannot attack. In view of Russian winter conditions, I found this to be a good change.
                      I will look in version 1.5.

                      Originally posted by AGRICOLA
                      Please check your PM.
                      I answered your pm...

                      Comment


                      • @ MacG: Thanks for taking up the mantle

                        My tuppence ha'pennyworth:

                        In the first instance, just modify the scenario to remove the too many units bug. I have already done this for my own copy, although it was a rather quick and arbitrary removal of German units in the rear areas of the map which could be done better. Use Nemo's RF 1.4 as the starting point (Catfish has already converted it to ToT; no simple as task if you look at the number of botched conversions of scenarios that have been produced without taking note of the guide at his site). Personally, I want to be able to play Nemo's original scenario without any 'improvements' or fundamnental changes to gameplay, and with the obvious glaring too many units bug removed.

                        As a phase 2 project, I like the sound of some of your ideas to remove the loopholes with units changing into non-sensible replacments in the latter stages of the game.

                        Phase 3: Go for it - use Colwyn's v1.5 changes plus whatever else you feel like doing. Remember this will be a wholesale change and require extensive testing (and time) to get right and preserve Nemo's gameplay.

                        Let's just keep it nice and simple for an initial release: ToT conversion, new gfx and no 'too many units' bug.
                        http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.ph...ory:Civ2_Units

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by curtsibling
                          No sweat!

                          If you send me the cities file, I will update it with my latest creations!

                          Curt, I'll send you the files tomorrow or Tuesday. My rehash of the summer units is complete and looks much better than the 2-year old version. I'm currrently rahashing the winter units.

                          We could really do with some new people, flags, Finnish cities and one or 2 other additions to the summer terrain. My winter terrain is looking a bit sorry for itself and probably needs updating if you have anything.
                          Last edited by fairline; October 28, 2007, 19:13.
                          http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.ph...ory:Civ2_Units

                          Comment


                          • No sweat! - Send along when you get time, matey!

                            I do have some new winter terrain for the new Dictator,

                            I would be delighted to donate it to Red Front...
                            http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.php?title=Home
                            http://totalfear.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • Yes

                              Originally posted by MacGalleo
                              A question :
                              Reduced the 2-turn movement capability of all Soviet aircraft to 1 turn.
                              Is this for all Soviet aircraft? Fighters and bombers?
                              Yes. It does then allow the player to multiple attack in summer with them but due to the high cost of aircraft so be it, i found that the earlier air units get damaged pretty quick anyway < il2 sturmovik's
                              Last edited by Colwyn; October 29, 2007, 22:46.
                              ---------------------------------------------
                              Pavlov Zangalis - Hero of the capture of Berlin RFDG.
                              ---------------------------------------------

                              Comment


                              • I've e-mailed the file Ciaran.
                                http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.ph...ory:Civ2_Units

                                Comment

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