Turn 132, 70 AD

DeepO · August 1, 2003, 14:26

Okay, starting this early, to get some points in...

Hurricane on galleys: do we need those? Currently, we have 2 other cities working on galleys, which we won't have much use for the coming 10 turns. I'd rather have it working on knigths instead (as long as the other 2 cities keep producing galleys, that is).

Cats! The following cities aren't very fast in producing units: Inchoff, WoC, Inchon, D-ville (possibly Elipolis). For the moment, we've got plenty of pikes, but we can always use more cats, we only have 7 of them, most of them on Bob. Bot only those on Bob could be reinforced, but more importantly if we want to have galley-galley attacks to keep invaders out, cat fire is going to be very effective, cats have a ~80% chance of hitting galleys.

Warrior heaven: in case we want to turn upper Stormia (one of these days we have to find a name for this peace of land) into a warrior factory, we have to pillage the road. Easiest would probably be Elipolis 8, if we go for Harry1 and H11, we can't let the worker on H111 build a road first (it needs irrigation, though). If we want warriors, we also have to pillage the harbor in Wittlich... which is a heavy price to pay. But, better get this discussion going quickly: first warriors could be build in 5 turns, and that harbor is only costing us money if we don't intend to use it (we could rush a galley there first before it goes)

Eta for banking in case Lego still wants to trade it: 8 turns. And I wouldn't mind having it in 7, just in case Lego decides to declare war on us early. But... that means no more upgrade money, at least not in mountains in gold.

If Hurricane is before Tempest in the city order (please check this this turn!), we can let Hurr build something in 2 turns (a galley, pike or MI), change to Tempest, and insta-build the GW without any possible interference from GoW.

DeepO

Shiber · August 1, 2003, 15:15

Hurricane on galleys: I agree.

Cats in unproductive cities: yes, good idea. Cats are still useful bombardment units, and they cost as little as 20 shields.

Warrior heaven (did you mean haven?): selling an 80 shields improvement is never a pleasure, but if we want warriors, then it's probably worth it. But can we afford the upgrades, while researching to meet Lego's deadline?

Hurricane, I believe, is before Tempest in the order of cities since the order is determined by the date that the city was founded. We have to confirm this before we rely on this, because if we're wrong then we're gonna have one fine university in Tempest but no GW.

asleepathewheel · August 2, 2003, 11:00

Is this the turn that the GoW golden age starts? I know they razed bilbao, but it was undefended. Can you start a GA by taking an undefended city? I don't think they've had the opportunity to kill anything else...

Aeson · August 2, 2003, 11:15

I think the Vet Galleys from Hurricane will prove invaluable. If we get 5-6 of them up N, it all but eliminates the problem of GoW sending a landing force.

Also, once Lego gets Navigation, we have to have a standing navy on our east coast to spot incoming ships and block them (sinking Galleys if they send them). We probably want to forgo Economics and go for Navigation ourselves as well.

asleepathewheel · August 2, 2003, 11:19

Originally posted by Aeson
Also, once Lego gets Navigation, we have to have a standing navy on our east coast to spot incoming ships and block them (sinking Galleys if they send them). We probably want to forgo Economics and go for Navigation ourselves as well.

To that end, what do we do when our spotters spot them coming? Should we have an agreement in place that each of us can't come within, say, 5 squares of our continent, otherwise the ship can be sunk? I don't want us to idly watch as they say "oh, we're just poking around" and then they land troops. I want our waters to be sovereign.

Aeson · August 2, 2003, 11:28

I was thinking... ready the troops, delay the landing with Galleys/Caravels blocking the path... ect. Agreements are probably not worth anything between Lego and GS at this point, Lego needs to hit us when we're vulnerable, and we can't really focus on Lego anyways. Otherwise I'd suggest a 'no Navigation' research path between us. At this point though, it's a very one sided agreement (protecting only GS), and Lego would probably see it that way.

Who knows, maybe Lego has other plans (JS Bach?), but we need to be ready if they do go for Navigation. If we bring it up, asking for some sort of protection in the matter, it just makes us look scared IMO.

alva · August 2, 2003, 14:52

Don't know if you have seen it,

* Fixed bug which caused walls not to be obsoleted by growing from a town to a city.

this comes from the read-me of the 1.27 patch (already out for european versions.

Shiber · August 2, 2003, 16:17

Thanks for the heads-up.

I can't find any mentioning of 1.27 on civ3.com...

DeepO · August 2, 2003, 17:39

I'm not saying we can't use more galleys, but do we need to have 3 cities on vet galleys? That's a lot...

I agree on Navigation: we will probably have to research it ourselves. I'm not sure if Lego is even going to give us Astro... the faster we can exchange banking for it, the better.

gold for warrior upgrades: well.. we probably will have more cash ready once the warriors are built. we need 5-7 turns if we want them to complete unrushed, which is about after banking... meaning more cash.

And Hurricane is before Tempest, but Nathan indicated that cities have gotten out of order with our gifting thing. Normally, all cities (foreign or our own) are in chronological order... but please check this before switching the GW.

DeepO

alva · August 2, 2003, 19:44

Read the news section shiber (the civ 3 one )

Shiber · August 2, 2003, 19:57

Oh, the news section. Where notices of new things are put up. D'oh.

nbarclay · August 3, 2003, 20:47

A RP horseman did some scouting and found out that GoW's stack is now at Toledo 2. That gives them a fork on Toledo, New Madrid, and a two-turn shot at Pamplona, so we'll need to cover all three possibilities. I'm thinking probably put two pikes [edit: and a knight] on the mountain that provides the best route to Pamplona and divide the rest of our forces between "our" two cities. Also, I'm thinking that assuming I can catch it in the production phase, I should switch New Madrid's rush from a cat to a pike (spending the extra gold needed to make up the difference) since we won't have enough units to go around.

Shiber · August 3, 2003, 20:58

I agree on the pike.

zeit · August 4, 2003, 08:08

We should have blocked T2, but that's not so smart to say after they got there. We need to think on how to get them down or going somewhere, becuase those Riders tie up too much forces where they are now...

We're having a real problem with gold- don't forget we need to research banking, help RP with 4 knights, and have some money for ourselves...

Shiber · August 4, 2003, 08:50

That would have put us in a jam had GoW decided to attack Toledo.

asleepathewheel · August 4, 2003, 10:46

good move by GoW.

Have they entered their GA yet? does sacking an undefended city count?

Randolph · August 4, 2003, 11:26

All this quantitative analysis and we miss the oldest chess move in the book.
Interesting in a more abstract way they're using a pin: our forces are generally held down due to the jucy RP cities behind us. Well maybe I'm getting too creative

Shiber · August 4, 2003, 13:48

Opening 70 AD

GoW offers peace treaty. Right...

DeepO · August 4, 2003, 14:13

we didn't miss it, IIRC... it was just deemed impossible to keep that mountain, and Toledo defended. Maybe we should have put 2 knights on top of that mountain, but I doubt it would have done much good

DeepO

Aeson · August 4, 2003, 14:21

Maybe we should have a talk with GoW before just flat out rejecting the peace treaty offer (at least to find out if they meant to offer it). They haven't been above 'fake wars' in the past to fullfill their contracts, maybe they would want to run one now against us?

Surely the public forum festivities would make ND think we are seriously at war with GoW... and then GoW could have their 'peaceful GA' (just they are at war with us and RP) while hiding their troops somewhere out of the way, or even hitting ND when they feel like it. They tried something of the kind during the Vox war, and maybe they are thinking of the same sort of thing now?

DeepO · August 4, 2003, 14:26

yeah, not a bad idea. We could ask them if they simply meant to offer us a GS-surrender treaty, or in case they would be serious, want to withdraw all their troops from our territory, back to where they came from. Perhaps they would go for that... however, as long as units of them are in our territory, we keep the right to fight them (similar to what we did to Vox).

DeepO

Shiber · August 4, 2003, 14:27

I'm refusing GoW's peace offer since it is not accepted on their side (we can send our own accepted peace offer at the end of our turn and it'll be like we accepted GoW's offer in the first place).
Shall I use the 4 cats in Toledo to bombard GoW's stack?

What's our plan?
GoW is most likely going for the mountain 96 of Pamplona (every other route is either unsafe or long). If they go this way unhindered, we'll be unable to help RP defend against GoW's riders. IMHO we have no choice but to block their approach, even if it means compromising on defenses in Toledo and NM.
The question is, how many defenders shall we use and where shall we position our units?

Shiber · August 4, 2003, 14:35

Defenses available for NM: 5 pikes, 3 knights, 1 cat (all vet and fortified). We can pull in extra knights from Toledo and they can even fortify. Defense bonus in NM is +100% (hills + city).
Defenses available for Toledo: 10 knights, 4 pikes, 3 medinfs (all vet and fortified, 1 pike is elite). Defense bonus in Toledo is +60% (walls + grass).

DeepO · August 4, 2003, 14:41

defense bonus for NM is bigger: GoW ould be attacking over a river.

Further, I agree we should try to block the mountain near Pamplona, otherwise RP is toast. Sad thing we need one more turn on our GW...

Shiber, I thought more troops could be unloaded into Sirocco, joining the defense in NM? otherwise, we definately need to take some troops from Toledo... even after cat fire, those 14 riders are a grave threat.

Also, has it changed in last patch that units are fortified if they can be fortified in the turn, instead of having to be fortified while all their MP remain?

DeepO

Shiber · August 4, 2003, 14:42

I suggest that we plant a few pikes on the mountain in Pamplona-96. They can't fortify, but they can still eat up a lot of rider HP.
GoW can take an alternate course, but then they'll be at least one turn late.

Hey, wait a minute... correct me if I'm wrong, but can't GoW reach Pamplona-99 this turn if they wanted to? They can move 1 on a road in neutral territory (wasting 1/3 MP), move 1 to a hill (wasting 2 MP) and with 2/3 MP left, move to the mountain 99 of Pamplona.

DeepO · August 4, 2003, 14:45

no P99 is unaccessible.. by moving off their mountain they lose 1 MP. Going to the hill would mean the end of the 3 MP. They could go to P63, but I don't see much good coming from that

DeepO

Shiber · August 4, 2003, 14:50

Originally posted by DeepO
defense bonus for NM is bigger: GoW ould be attacking over a river.

I'm not sure.
I think they can use the neutral road 2 of their current location, and then move 3 and attack NM.

Shiber, I thought more troops could be unloaded into Sirocco, joining the defense in NM? otherwise, we definately need to take some troops from Toledo... even after cat fire, those 14 riders are a grave threat.

I already took the troops that can reach NM this turn via galleys into account.
Btw, shall I fire at GoW with our mighty catapults now?

Aeson · August 4, 2003, 14:50

I was thinking something far more devious (and probably not acceptable to us

). But something of the sort:

GoW captures NM or Toledo (probably Toledo) this next turn, we only leave 1 unit in the city, so they can start their GA.. capture a city... and then gift it back to us to get their units home. They don't lose anything, it looks like they are fighting us (taking Toledo, and then losing it back to us...we'd just need to rush a Worker or starve the city to make it look right), and they end up with a 'peaceful' GA.

If GoW really wants peace with us, we could probably work something out, and ND would fall pretty fast. We could offer GoW the land they would have had up north (or most of it) from ND for 'free', and we take an 80 to 100 tile chunk of Bob for ourselves as we were originally hoping for. RP keeps what they had before the war, and gets a bit of ND too. Instead of ND controlling the S of Bob, RP does.

ND pays for not being willing to allow us our 'fair share', and RP takes their spot. Then we are looking at 4 remaining civs, roughly the same size each, and a tiny Vox. RP and Lego would still have their GA's to come.

I think it would be better for us and GoW (and certainly RP) than Lego starting to pull away during a long and bloody conflict between RP+GS and GoW+ND.

If the city gifting isn't desireable, we can work other ways out.