Custom Race- Best Stats?

[bakalov]

vmxa, I agree ... this is reasonable change in some cases, but I'd rather change it according to the starting tech level (for sure I would change it in an advanced game).

The AHW is reducing the importance of your starting point, so you can easily survive situations like the one described by the booklord. I am playing AHW to acquire the techs I need for an attack as early as possible. Usually I am not settling around but instead I go for capturing of the enemy colonies, and ships if possible, not for other reason but for the money :-) Anyway in most cases their races are better then mine, or at least there is a few of them that are better ....

Booklord, in the game you described instead of trying to make an alliance with the Alkaries you'd have done better if conquered them. I don't know what your other bonuses were but if they were artifacts and large HW you could make it.
If you want try the race I described a few posts ago, and limit yourself to only one colony, no Colony bases or ships, even if you have good planets. If you play well then you'll have to be able to win every game even with this one planet ....

For the spies .... You have to be careful and to look when the first spy will come. Just demand from them to "stop spying". If they are in good relations with you then the chance that they agree is nearly 100%. The AI seems to be always somewhat "ashamed" from spying. Even the darloks when they are not repulsive easily agree with that.

For the aliances - you can try to make alliance if they are the same government as you are. If not then you will need lots of diplomatic bonuses to do that - Xeno Psychology, Diplomat* Leaders, and Charismatic or Telepathic if you have any of these traits. The good attitude is necessary condition for making treaties, but it is not enough by itself. If they do not agree you'll have to try again when you get one or more of the above things.

[booklord]

Bakalov,

the problem was that conquering the Alkari early simply wasn't an option. They're early racial advantages of ship defense and cybernetic made their ships signifigantly stronger.

Meanwhile I was trapped on lone homeworld while the Alkari went off to colonize other worlds.

Alkari spies ensured that any tech advances I came up with were in Alkari hands within a few turns. Artifacts homeworld would have only made the Alkari stronger. Large homeworld wouldn't matter either.

It's possible I could have slowly developed a fleet and conquered the Alkari homeworld when I was ready except for one problem. The Alkari wouldn't leave me alone. As some sort of aggressive militarist ( I'd swear the race personality was Kill, Birdy, Kill, Kill ) it would invariably declare war once it got a few ships together. Being impossible level it built its fleet a lot faster than me. ( Not to mention having more star bases meant it could field a larger fleet )

[bakalov]

Booklord, AHW + LHW would grant you almost double research from your only colony and twice less time needed to get the necessary tech to kill them ...

With race like that I would have battleship like:
Tritanium
Positronic Computer
Class III shield
Inertial stabilizer
Battle Scanner
Heavy Armor

5 Hv AF Mass Drivers
10 Pd AF Mass Drivers
5 Free Space,
trained in a space academy by turn 110 in prewarp.

The AI usually is not capable of killing such ship by turn 200. May be the only threat can be an enemy missile base with high armor. To deal with it bring 2 or three of these.
You can refit such ship later when you get Zortrium, Force Fields 4 and 5.

You do not need a fleet to kill them - you need only a ship (like the described one). With AHW+LHW race you can develop the Class III shield by turn 90 without interrupting the sequence for best colony development, and this is the earliest possible time they could attack you.
If you think that this wont be enough, add a missile base + radiation shield and they will not be able to touch you for a looooooooong time, more than necessary to kill and forget them.

And did you read the thing for demanding of "stop spying"? Anyway with AHW+LHW your research would be fast enough to get the techs that compensate for the spying negatives before even establishing the contact with them.

It is much more unpleasant to meet a repulsive darlok than the alkari in such situation. Not only for the spying, but for not knowing when they are going to attack. That's why I prefer a dictatorship race (the one I described). It has almost the same amount of research from the start, but more population (and more production in this way) and no spying defence negatives (actually the dictatorship bonus negates the -spying in the defence, if you get -10 to spying. The -spying offence still remains, but you will not need it as you are creative).

And if you continue speaking about this without trying I wont reply anymore because I am tired of my words falling to deaf ears. If you want to prove me wrong, please post a saved game with the race I described(Dictatorship, LHW, AHW, +1 Research, Aquatic, Creative, Low gravity, -10 ship attack, -10 espionage), no matter the starting conditions, from turn 0, and If I can't play it to victory then I will believe you.

[originalbork]

Bakalov,

You seem to be the only other one in this thread that truly gets the game. There are 101 ways (ok more) to beat the dumb ass computer. It is virtually impossible to lose to it once you get the game and ship design.

It would have been fun to play you. You should get on Kali and play Cybersaber, he is probably still the best player there. When I played he and I were equal players.

Bork

[vmxa1]

bakalov, here you go, well I won't it is a loser, just a very poor start. I would say it has all of the elements that was mentioned.
Mentar has 2 gas, med tundra (ultra poor), small barren (poor)
Three systems within D. cell range:
Adib nothing
Goi nothing
Remus med tundra (poor) and med barren (poor)
Klacs are your nearest neighbors, followed by Darloks.
I submit this is about as bad a start as a creative race could expect. This is the funny part, it was the only pass I made, it was the very first and only game I created.
Looking forward to your logs.

[bakalov]

Ok, I will play this one :-)

[vmxa1]

I think it is fairly close to what Booklord was seeing, so it should close the book on the issue.

[bakalov]

Surely ;-) I will try to make it without using the other planets ....

[bakalov]

And, bork, 10x for the good words ... I promise that I will go playing on Kali as soon as I get good enough internet at home. I am always eager for a good game with worthy opponents :-)

[originalbork]

Is that start in pre or ave tech?

Look if you are playing pre creative (8) pts is actually a pick which will delay your initial start.

In a pre start ave galaxy, I would never take creative. Many of your early techs are like being creative so it becomes a waste.

The smaller the galaxy the sooner you need to be flying. In an 8 player game doing anything other than huge seems to put players potentially on top of each other.

So in playing an 8 player small, the best race flies first and lays a frigate over the home of another and blockades. This would easily be some version of a demovore. Then you sit for 25-50 turns of frig wars until you finally have a chance of taking down a starbase.

By going 8 player huge you have some room, univore large rich (or +1 pro) is good. Uni-Tol +1 Large is good if you get room because it will boom after initial growth.
Uni-Sub-+1 pro-Arty-Large gets you going almost as fast a univore.

The start you showed to bakalov would be a piece of cake for any of the races I just described to you.

[vmxa1]

Bork, here is the game settings:
Note the race is and the settings are the ones that Bakalov suggested, not my choices. The purpose was to get a game that was close to what Booklord had mentioned. This would give Bakalov a chance to deminstrate his points.

Huge map, Impossible level, 8 players, Prewarp, Average glalxy age (this one I was not sure what the settings were so I went in the middle), Tactical combat, antarans on and NO random events. I choose the no random events so that any one playing along would not get something that the others did not get, IOW to make it the same for all.
Dict, LHW, AHW, +1 R, Aqua, Creative
Low G, -SD, -Spy

I do not dispute your points, only to point out that, these are not MP games and that means there is no point in playing the best settings and race for every game. If I did that how long could I play before it was boring? If you don't play some less than optimal settings and less than optimal races, the game would have been in the trash by now.
In a huge map, I would drop the AHW in favor of +R or +P. I mite use Replusive, -SD, -GC so as to disallow any trading or demanding, as it makes it harder. In fact, I may prefer to have Unification and drop AHW and +R.
I would lean towards AHW in a smaller map.

[bakalov]

The idea is to prove that the game can be successfully played with the worst possible starting point in Single Player and there is a Race that always wins.

This should be a situation where there are no colonizable planets within the starting system and within the deuterium range, probably with a black hole nearby - It will have to play only with its homeworld from the start. The first enemy to meet should have big offence and defence ship bonuses (like the Alkari) and should be aggressive militarist personality - according to the booklord's description.

The race I suggested is designed to be start point-independent and should be able to survive the worst possible situation (like the one described). Bork, I'd like to hear your opinion on a race that will do fine without more colonies than the starting one.

I'll try to make several more bad starting points and I'll play the worst possible that is similar to the one described by the booklord ......

Vmxa, note that in your game there is a medium tundra ultra poor planet in the starting system, which is not good for anything else but will make a nice food producing colony for an aquatic race. You can get all of the needed food there and use the homeworld to get ~250 RP, or 300+ with a leader .... This will allow you to get the irridium in reasonable time, and the following microlite + nano disassemblers + zortrium armor will make your colony with very high production that will be producing lots of very strong missile boats and any enemy will be screwed ....

[booklord]

With a bit of thought, ( and its a shame I don't still have the save game so I could try it out ) there may be a way to defeat the Alkari in that situation.

Concentrate all technology advances on missile technology and send an nasty nothing but 2 - rack missiles ( mirv Nuke or Merculite ) ship and a scout ( so the missile ship after firing can retreat should it come under heavy fire ) to attack the Alkari homeworld. At early tech levels the damage ships like that can do is devastating ( and the Alkari defensive bonus would do nothing against it ). Also by limiting yourself to one tech type ( well sociology and biology could be studied too ) you can minimize the disadvantage caused by the hostile races constant spying. A ship like that would be out of the gate a lot faster than the one you describe and crew training wouldn't even be an issue.

BTW I've used the "stop spying" demand before in Moo2. Unless you've got real good relations or are significantly stronger most agressive and xenophobic races translate that demand as "Please delcare war on me"

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by bakalov
Vmxa, note that in your game there is a medium tundra ultra poor planet in the starting system, which is not good for anything else but will make a nice food producing colony for an aquatic race. You can get all of the needed food there and use the homeworld to get ~250 RP, or 300+ with a leader .... This will allow you to get the irridium in reasonable time, and the following microlite + nano disassemblers + zortrium armor will make your colony with very high production that will be producing lots of very strong missile boats and any enemy will be screwed ....

I knew you would not colonize those starting planets, at least not at the start, so it did not matter. If your point is that is not the worst possible start or as bad as the one Booklord had, ok. It will do to serve your point, I think. The first 110 turns are routine, it is after that point that the fun begins. Klacs will go to war and then surrender to Darloks and they will go to war.
So anyway, look forward to seeing this or what ever vechicle you use.

[originalbork]

This setup I would probably be playing

Uni Lith Rich Large Rep -Espy

Given that start here is the game intro.

1. Full production build both bases immediately set them to housing. 15 turns for 2 bases tops. Each pop unit past one is immediately shifted to home world until full
2. "Learn to Fly" scouts out colonize anything reasonable. 2-3 CS full production no research. Leave scouts at max range. If nothing worth a crap op once. With any system the set up is the same. Housing till half full then c-base.
3. Usually tech RL to AF to Bio. With a UP I may go AF to RL. All pop farms stop popping so they produce over 1/2 before reaching both AF and RL. Buy the rest and go right back to pop farming.
4. If danger is emminant. Go for BS laser BB and initial conquer of darloks and klackons. If they stay at range, don't grab good battle tech etc. Go robos to supers.

This type of race isn't the best for a tech explosion but is much more capable of protecting itself from early attacks. As such it is more balanced. A uni-tol or uni-sub will be at a disadvantage compared to this race early unless they find a good monster gaia to really jack things up.