NFL 2013 Season Thread

[Ben Kenobi]

We've had Black pocket passers. They just haven't been as good as the mobile ones. Jason Campbell. Byron Leftwich. JaMarcus Russell. Josh Freeman's not really mobile.

More a consequence in that they aren't being taught to play the position well. Moon was good. That he remains the best black QB of all time 30 years later speaks volumes as to the quality of instruction they are receiving. The QB position has made tremendous strides and advances since Moon's time, and black QBs have been left in the back of the bus.

[Ben Kenobi]

*Who proved so concussion-prone that he's virtually out of football. Remember our little who is more injury-prone debate?

I'm still glad I won a championship in Auction off of shipping Vick's ass. Satisfying. Overpaid at draft, but sold him for even more. Then I did the same with Brady this year, but 100 bucks spent on Rice and Foster was just too much to overcome.

[Al B. Sure!]

More a consequence in that they aren't being taught to play the position well. Moon was good. That he remains the best black QB of all time 30 years later speaks volumes as to the quality of instruction they are receiving. The QB position has made tremendous strides and advances since Moon's time, and black QBs have been left in the back of the bus.

Who wasn't teaching them to play the position well? All four of those QB's I mentioned were collegiate superstars and all were 1st round picks who were going to be franchise QB's. Pretty sure Campbell, Leftwich, Russell, and Freeman got quality coaching the same as Christian Ponder, Sam Bradford, or whatever other mediocre but highly viewed QB received.

I'm still glad I won a championship in Auction off of shipping Vick's ass. Satisfying. Overpaid at draft, but sold him for even more. Then I did the same with Brady this year, but 100 bucks spent on Rice and Foster was just too much to overcome.

Is this your 'street cred'. Your little stories about fantasy football that are supposed to substantiate your stupid statements?

[Ben Kenobi]

Who wasn't teaching them to play the position well? All four of those QB's I mentioned were collegiate superstars and all were 1st round picks who were going to be franchise QB's. Pretty sure Campbell, Leftwich, Russell, and Freeman got quality coaching the same as Christian Ponder, Sam Bradford, or whatever other mediocre but highly viewed QB received.

Then why haven't we seen a black QB surpass Moon yet? I don't think black players are dumber and less athletic today.

You've got Moon at 49k passing yards. The only one anywhere in the ballpark is McNabb and he had 37k and fewer than Kerry Collins.

We'll be seeing folks like Rivers, Eli, Roethlisberger, and Carson Palmer surpass McNabb pretty soon.

The second best Black QB not named moon? McNair. And he barely topped out at 30k yards. That's pretty sad. If Rivers were black, he'd already be the 3rd best Black QB of all time.

[Al B. Sure!]

Then why haven't we seen a black QB surpass Moon yet? I don't think black players are dumber and less athletic today.

Because Moon was one of the 10 greatest QB's of all time.

Why haven't we seen a left-handed QB surpass Steve Young yet? I don't think left-handed players are dumber and less athletic today.

[Ben Kenobi]

Who wasn't teaching them to play the position well?

The same folks teaching them that running for the first is a good thing.

All four of those QB's I mentioned were collegiate superstars and all were 1st round picks who were going to be franchise QB's. Pretty sure Campbell, Leftwich, Russell, and Freeman got quality coaching the same as Christian Ponder, Sam Bradford, or whatever other mediocre but highly viewed QB received.

I'm amused that by following your advice Black QBs are likely to get hurt, and then shuffled and replaced. Personally, I'd be advising them to stay in the pocket, learn to make their reads, etc.

Is this your 'street cred'. Your little stories about fantasy football that are supposed to substantiate your stupid statements?

It's an indicator that Vick is massively overrated.

[Ben Kenobi]

Because Moon was one of the 10 greatest QB's of all time.

Ok. Assuming that passing yards are something that doesn't change over time, this is a fine argument. You've got McNabb in the top 30 and Moon in the top 10. Leaving you about short another player.

However, that's not the distribution we see with QBs in general - we see that they are skewed more towards recent QBs rather than older ones, as the passing game has made significant strides. By this logic, we should expect to see a McNabb along with Rivers, Eli, Roethlisberger. We don't. Why?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Because Moon was one of the 10 greatest QB's of all time.

Why haven't we seen a left-handed QB surpass Steve Young yet? I don't think left-handed players are dumber and less athletic today.

True. There simply haven't been all that many starting NFL African-American QBs until recently. After Moon, you basically had McNair, Culpepper, Vick, and McNabb until the late 2000s.

(edit: I forgot Culpepper)

[Al B. Sure!]

The same folks teaching them that running for the first is a good thing.

Campbell, Leftwich, etc. were not taught that. They are pocket passers.

True. There simply haven't been all that many starting NFL African-American QBs until recently. After Moon, you basically had McNair, Culpepper, Vick, and McNabb until the late 2000s.

(edit: I forgot Culpepper)

There have been many starting Black QB's, actually.

You forgot Randall Cunningham. Campbell, Leftwich, Russell, and Freeman, who I already mentioned as Black pocket passers, were all 1st rounders. Then you had guys like Tarvaris Jackson, Vince Young, and David Garrard who were starters for a few years and led their teams to the playoffs.

Akili Smith went one pick after McNabb. Kordell Stewart. Quincy Carter. The immortal Aaron Brooks who was better than everyone's perception of him. While no one today remembers it, Jeff Blake somehow started exactly 100 games.


There's been many Black starting QB's.


My point was just that it's silly to ask why no Black QB has passed Warren Moon when arguably there's only been about 6 or 7 QB's PERIOD who have been better than Moon.

[MRT144]

The worst part of Ben asking these questions is if they are non rhetorical, what does HE think is at play.

[Al B. Sure!]

The worst part of Ben asking these questions is if they are non rhetorical, what does HE think is at play.

He thinks they are taught from a young age to run first... even though Campbell, Leftwich, JaMarcus Russell, and Freeman are all and have always been pocket passers. Wasn't like the NFL made them stay in the pocket, either.

Now I know that in college sacks take away from a QB's rushing yards but still:

Jason Campbell has 307yds rushing in 4 years at Auburn (and 206 of that came in one season).
JaMarcus Russell had 79yds in 3 years at LSU.
Byron Leftwich 181yds in 5 total years at Marshall.
The 'runner' in the group, Josh Freeman had 343yds in 3 years at Kansas State.

Those 4 1st round picks were all pocket passers at least since college. They've all been busts.

But it's not like Black pocket passers don't exist.

[Ben Kenobi]

The worst part of Ben asking these questions is if they are non rhetorical, what does HE think is at play.

I've stated my thesis. They are not being taught how to perform as a quarterback, as a pocket passer. They are being fed the nonsense about 'mobile QB' and how that's the way to go, and it's hindering their QB development.

[Ben Kenobi]

Those 4 1st round picks were all pocket passers at least since college. They've all been busts.

Drafted by the Redskins, Raiders, Jaguars, and the Buccaneers. We know that the Jags, Raiders and Skins are dumpster fire organizations for QB development.

Freeman had a good progression. So what the heck happened to him in 2013?

[Ben Kenobi]

“I am not suggesting that is a negative. [But] it is very hard to be consistent playing that way because there is such a random and arbitrary element to that. We never talk about the plays that don’t work when quarterbacks move, we only talk about the plays that do work. I thought even in that first year he needed a lot of work as a consistent, precision pocket passer. And I think he has been very erratic in his development in that area.”

http://nfl.si.com/2013/08/07/fixing-the-qbs-josh-freeman-and-the-lag-between-potential-and-greatness/

he’s got an estimable backlog of mechanical issues that will prevent him from becoming a consistently great quarterback until he solves them

Following up the chain, Freeman gets his hips and shoulders open way too early, especially when throwing to the left,” Bussell continued. “His shoulders are torquing right-to-left, rather than in a more top-to-bottom motion. This is why his elbow and arm lag so far behind when he throws. This is also why the majority of his throws are off-target to the right, and his release point is inconsistent. On the followthrough, Josh’s right leg will swing around and his foot placement will end up parallel to the line of scrimmage. This is clear evidence that his body is moving sideways rather than toward his intended target.

“The first picture stuck out to me because of the lag of Freeman’s arm behind his shoulders,” Bussell said. “The second picture is a good example of how far out to the side Freeman typically releases the ball. You can also see that his right foot is beginning to swing around to the outside. He’s stepped towards his target but his body is falling off to the side. He actually looks like he short-arms this pass even though he throws it 22 yards in the air on a line. This play reminds me a little of Jay Cutler. Like Cutler, Freeman has enough ‘arm talent’ to get away with mechanical inadequacies, but sometimes they cause him to make major mistakes.”

And again...

the way the Bucs apply the ISO concept also takes away one of Freeman’s primary attributes – his ability to throw on the run, which he did a lot in his best NFL season of 2010.

So Freeman's problems again, had to do with the fact that he was never taught how to actually be a pocket passer. Contrary to what Al stated - he was being used differently.

But look at the advice here:

Josh should run the ball more when his reads aren’t there. That’s an acceptable safety valve. As long as he slides or gets out of bounds that’s a low risk/high reward option for him. ‘Tuck it and run’ is better than a throwaway, a bad decision, or an interception.”

Rather than being taught how to actually work as a pocket passer, he's being fed the exact opposite advice. And we all know how well that worked out for him.

[Al B. Sure!]

Freeman had a good progression. So what the heck happened to him in 2013?

Nothing. Greg Schiano is an idiot.

He lost to the Jets because Lavonte David shoved Geno Smith out of bounds. Then lost to the Saints by 2 points and to the Patriots. Then was out of a job. Freeman got dicked hard.