NFL 2013 Season Thread

[Ben Kenobi]

All I ever say is Vick is way better than you ever give him credit for

You think he's better than Aaron Brooks?

and in 2010 when he took the starting QB job from Kevin Kolb, Vick, in his 11 games, was the best QB of the 2010 season.

Unfortunately the season is 16 games. That's like saying that Flutie was the best NFL QB of the nineties.

Those are superb numbers.

Flutie did better playing on the then 1-15 2001 Chargers. At 38. So yeah.

Similarity scores? Where are these similarity scores for Vick? I would like similarity scores for Culpepper and Stafford as well.

Pro football reference. I'd rather see them era adjusted though. Like we do with OPS+ and ERA+. It's ok for rough contemporaries, and yes, I smiled when I saw Cunningham and Esiason on the similarity scores.

The rest of the way though, their stats are extremely similar though Culpepper was a slightly more accurate passer but was more INT prone than Vick and didn't win games like Vick (Culpepper went 17-24 in the following span, whereas Vick went 18-16 as starter of the supposed 'Dream Team')

Culpepper was a legit NFL QB. Vick's never been in top 10 for yardage in any year. I don't think it's wrong to expect a QB to rack up yardage.

This is the guy who ran like an NFL starting RB, with both a 902 and 1039 yard rushing seasons.

Yes, just as relevant as Elam who was the Kicker with the most tackles.

Vick is like having a QB and a RB in one paycheck.

He was a mediocre QB and a mediocre RB. We're seeing it with RGIII. Teams are better off with a QB who can play the position well.

That season was why Andy Reid and the Eagles invested in him, got rid of erstwhile QB-of-the-future Kevin Kolb and mortgaged their future for the Dream Team, because Vick was so jaw-droppingly impressive in 2010.

And that decision is why Andy Reid is no longer coaching the Eagles.

Taken in sum, Vick was a mediocre passer but the single best running QB in NFL history. Combined that made him at least a solid and good QB.

Mediocre at RB, Mediocre at QB. Never won a championship, never lead his team to anything, just the one 3k yard season.

What good does it do for you as a team if you can't stay healthy for a season?

Cunningham practically is the same as Culpepper, even playing for the same team with the same stellar Randy Moss! Look again at Cunningham's career and you see Culpepper-like #'s.

I have. He was a good QB (miles better than Vick), and he was legit. But I think he's overrated and Culpepper is underrated.

In fact, since you like the arbitrary number 3K for some reason, Cunningham had 5 3k+ seasons and in 1998, he threw for 3704 34TDs 10INTs and an incredible 8.7 Y/A.

Whereas Culpepper put up 1k more yards in his best season.

It does bring up the idea for all us, but especially Ben, that we need to recalibrate how we look at passing numbers. Running QB's have an average and an upper limit of passing

Why should we give him extra credit when his primary position is at QB?

An equivalent to 4000 yard passing season for a running QB would probably be somewhere around 3400 yards passing and 600 yards rushing.

Should we give kickers extra points for tackles?

Did you actually pay attention to Culpepper's career? He always got injured! His knees especially were ruined.

Yes, and? Vick gets injured every single year. His value to a team is basically nil now that it's been shown that a QB coming off the bench beat him out for his job. Now, he's in the position that his career was made for - backup QB. He'll give you the game or two that you need as a security blanket and bonus - you won't be relying on him for a season.

Culpepper played from 1999 to 2009. What do you mean by 'back when Culpepper was playing'? He didn't play in the 80's!

Last I checked passing offenses are bigger now than they were 10 years ago.

Now tell me where he stands in rushing attempts (you said pass attempts like it means something), rushing yards, rushing TDs, yards per rush attempt, etc.

Even further down the list.

He was a mediocre QB (in the low end of the top 100 QBs), without era adjustments, and a mediocre RB (not even in the top 100). If he was an all star QB I could see making the case that his running made up for his passing deficiencies. He's had only one year that even merits any discussion at all, and even there - he didn't top 3400 yards. Again, Doug Flutie threw for more yards in a season than Vick. That I think speaks volumes.

[-Jrabbit]

Does anyone actually believe Ben's arguments? I don't want to waste so much time doing research and typing up responses if Ben is the only one to read it. It's not fun. It wastes my time and makes me angry.

You should stop, Alby. No one, quite likely including Ben, believes those arguments. Nor do we care.

He is trolling you, and clearly you are out of practice in ignoring him. The correct procedure is to point out his error (as you did in post 815 and again, in great detail, in #819), then just point, laugh, and walk away.

[Ben Kenobi]

He is trolling you, and clearly you are out of practice in ignoring him. The correct procedure is to point out his error (as you did in post 815 and again, in great detail, in #819), then just point, laugh, and walk away.

I'm actually enjoying the discussion with Albie. At least he's contributing rather than complaining about people he doesn't like. Sure, we disagree on Vick, but that's the fun. What fun is it to spar with someone who agrees with you all the time?

[-Jrabbit]

Sparring, trolling; tomayto, tomahto

[Ben Kenobi]

Ok, suit yourself JR. To each their own.

[SlowwHand]

As far as Romo is concerned, I would estimate that around 26-28 other teams would love to have him.

Alby, you have way too much time on your hands; and then to come up with nothing...

[Boris Godunov]

As far as Romo is concerned, I would estimate that around 26-28 other teams would love to have him.

So name them.

I can name 14 starting QBs right off the bat whose team almost certainly wouldn't trade him for Romo right now:

Brady
Brees
Cousins
Cutler
Dalton
Flacco
Foles
Kaepernick
P. Manning
Newton
Rivers
Rodgers
Roethlisberger
Wilson

You could probably add E. Manning (while having a bad season, it's more about how awful the NYGs are around him, and he's got 2 Superbowl wins to Romo's 0), Palmer and A. Smith to the list... maybe even Tannehill!

[SlowwHand]

I didn't expect any one you to be honest AND knowledgeable enough to understand. Roethlisberger? Cousins? Really? Flacco? No. Rivers? No. Dalton? I like Dalton but he's hardly a representative of a sterling career so far. Romo's ability to move buys him time. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Put Romo on another team and put Rivers on the Cowboys. You think Rivers would do better than Romo? Fool.

[Ben Kenobi]

Brady (Romo > Brady), but I can't see the Patroits letting Brady go before he retires.
Brees (Yep)
P. Manning (Yep)
Newton
Rivers
Rodgers
Roethlisberger
Wilson

I'd say 8. And I'm not a Cowboy's fan. I can't see Carolina dumping Newton, even though I personally rate Romo higher.

[Ben Kenobi]

You think Rivers would do better than Romo? Fool.

Career-wise Rivers is the highest active rated QB by value not named Peyton, Brees or Brady.

He has almost as many TDs and yardage as Eli, but about half the picks. Fewer picks than Roethlisberger, but it's close.

Romo's a fine QB - but he's no Philip Rivers. Philip Rivers is the best of his generation with him, Eli and Big Ben, even though the numbers at present do not reflect this.

[Ben Kenobi]

Chargers look like they are in fantastic shape. If they can finally beat the Raiders, they'll be tied with Baltimore and Miami going into the final week. Wow. They'll all be 8-7.

[SlowwHand]

I said change their teams, Ben. I didn't say he sucked.

[-Jrabbit]

My only problem with Romo is his well-documented tendency to choke when the stakes are highest. He's a skilled QB, but those turnovers in crunch time are pretty hard to overlook.

FWIW, I feel about the same way about Cutler. His red-zone turnovers are just maddening.

[Ben Kenobi]

I said change their teams, Ben. I didn't say he sucked.

Take Rivers and put him on the Cowboys, I think Rivers does better. That doesn't mean I think Romo is a bad QB. Far from it. I'm kinda high on Rivers.

[Ben Kenobi]

My only problem with Romo is his well-documented tendency to choke when the stakes are highest. He's a skilled QB, but those turnovers in crunch time are pretty hard to overlook.

FWIW, I feel about the same way about Cutler. His red-zone turnovers are just maddening.

FWIW, I think Romo is somewhat better than Cutler, but they are pretty close. I think the bears would be better off with Romo than Cutler.