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  • #91
    Originally posted by PLATO View Post

    Thanks for this. I had never read much on this subject. Indeed this was a demonstrated error:

    "But during the American landings – code-named Utah and Omaha beaches – the DDs fared far worse. Willey says the US commanders stayed rigidly to the original plan, launching their tanks from at least two miles away. At Omaha, most of the DD tanks launched sank in the choppy waters."

    When allied forces landed on the Normandy beaches on D-Day, they did so alongside a fleet of bizarre tanks with very special roles – brought into life by an eccentric British commander


    Was this Bradley's decision alone? It appears that it was a consensus U.S. command blunder from that quote




    "Although Patton might have spun a line across the narrow neck, I doubted his ability to hold it. Nineteen German divisions were now stampeding to escape the trap. Meanwhile, with four divisions George was already blocking three principal escape routes through Alencon, Sees and Argentan. Had he stretched that line to include Falaise, he would have extended his roadblock a distance of 40 miles (64 km). The enemy could not only have broken through, but he might have trampled Patton's position in the onrush. I much preferred a solid shoulder at Argentan to the possibility of a broken neck at Falaise."

    — Omar Bradley



    "Since troops were scheduled to land at Utah and Omaha starting at 06:30 (an hour earlier than the British beaches), these areas received only about 40 minutes of naval bombardment before the assault troops began to land on the shore"



    This doesn't appear to have been a tactical decision that Bradley made on the spot but more of a strategic decision made before the landings. Minesweepers had just finished clearing the area and that appears by plan as well. If this is a strategic decision then not sure how we can assign blame to Bradley. He may have participated in the strategic decision, but it would not have been him alone (and we don't know what his input would have been at that decision making point either).
    I won't characterize Bradley's errors as a pattern of unilateral stupidities. He was too cautious to show such a pattern. However, IMHO, a cautious general needs all the more lofty accomplishments to offset the flaw of the caution itself and his are very good, solid, but not extraordinary.

    I also have a bit of an axe to grand with the stupid resistance to using the funnies purely because he thought the intervening months would be inadequate to train crews to use Cromwells. Such a lame excuse suggests probably harbored ludditism and technoscepticism which I detest in any general or leader. He loses extra points in my book for that.

    Comment


    • PLATO
      PLATO commented
      Editing a comment
      Yes, I agree that not using the funnies was an error that probably cost lives. This seems to have been a U.S. Command decision and not a Bradley decision though. Even so, his participation in that decision was a bad one.

      I am not sure that caution should be disregarded as totally as you disregard it though. The Allies clearly had the momentum in nearly every way. Taking chances that have high upside/lowside outcomes does not seem like the rational choice when being cautious seems to ensure victory.

      Given all that though, you have done enough for me to at least question Bradley in ways I have not done before. I shall neither hurt nor heal him.

      Thanks again for all the good info.

  • #92
    10 - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding +
    10 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany)
    9 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland)
    10 - Heinz Guderian (Germany) (Generals Lutz and Guderian must share the credit blitzkreig)
    14 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR) -
    13 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany)
    17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
    12 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan)
    2 - General Omar Bradley (USA)
    15 - General George Patton (USA) -

    Eliminated:
    1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
    2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
    3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
    4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
    5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
    6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)

    Comment


    • #93
      10 - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding
      10 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany)
      10 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland) +
      10 - Heinz Guderian (Germany) (Generals Lutz and Guderian must share the credit blitzkreig)
      14 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR)
      11 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany) --
      17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
      12 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan)
      2 - General Omar Bradley (USA)
      15 - General George Patton (USA)

      Eliminated:
      1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
      2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
      3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
      4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
      5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
      6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)
      "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

      Comment


      • #94
        10 - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding
        10 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany)
        10 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland)
        10 - Heinz Guderian (Germany) (Generals Lutz and Guderian must share the credit blitzkreig)
        14 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR)
        12 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany) +
        17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
        12 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan)
        0 - General Omar Bradley (USA) --
        15 - General George Patton (USA)

        Eliminated:
        1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
        2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
        3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
        4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
        5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
        6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)
        Keep on Civin'
        RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O

        Comment


        • #95
          8 - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding--
          10 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany)
          10 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland)
          10 - Heinz Guderian (Germany) (Generals Lutz and Guderian must share the credit blitzkreig)
          15 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR)+
          12 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany)
          17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
          12 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan)
          15 - General George Patton (USA)

          Eliminated:
          1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
          2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
          3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
          4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
          5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
          6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)
          7th - General Omar Bradley (USA)

          Comment


          • #96
            6 - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding--
            10 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany)
            10 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland)
            10 - Heinz Guderian (Germany) (Generals Lutz and Guderian must share the credit blitzkreig)
            16 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR)+
            12 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany)
            17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
            12 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan)
            15 - General George Patton (USA)

            Eliminated:
            1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
            2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
            3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
            4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
            5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
            6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)
            7th - General Omar Bradley (USA)

            JM
            Jon Miller-
            I AM.CANADIAN
            GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

            Comment


            • #97
              6 - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowdin
              8 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany) --
              10 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland)
              10 - Heinz Guderian (Germany) (Generals Lutz and Guderian must share the credit blitzkreig)
              16 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR)
              12 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany)
              17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
              12 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan)
              16 - General George Patton (USA) +

              Eliminated:
              1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
              2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
              3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
              4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
              5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
              6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)
              7th - General Omar Bradley (USA)
              "

              Comment


              • #98
                You guys do not understand how important logistics are to any military. This guy is better than any general on the list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brehon_B._Somervell
                “It is no use trying to 'see through' first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To 'see through' all things is the same as not to see.â€

                ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man​

                Comment


                • #99
                  We need his spiritual successor to take over government contraction in the Bay Area.

                  JM
                  Jon Miller-
                  I AM.CANADIAN
                  GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                  Comment


                  • 4 - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowdin--
                    8 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany)
                    11 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland)+
                    10 - Heinz Guderian (Germany) (Generals Lutz and Guderian must share the credit blitzkreig)
                    16 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR)
                    12 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany)
                    17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
                    12 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan)
                    16 - General George Patton (USA)

                    Eliminated:
                    1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
                    2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
                    3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
                    4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
                    5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
                    6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)
                    7th - General Omar Bradley (USA)

                    Comment


                    • 4 - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowdin
                      8 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany)
                      12 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland)+
                      10 - Heinz Guderian (Germany) (Generals Lutz and Guderian must share the credit blitzkreig)
                      16 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR)
                      12 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany)
                      17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
                      10 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan) --
                      16 - General George Patton (USA)

                      Eliminated:
                      1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
                      2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
                      3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
                      4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
                      5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
                      6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)
                      7th - General Omar Bradley (USA)
                      "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                      Comment


                      • 4 - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding
                        8 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany) +1 for capability (IMO bigger impact than Guderian) -1 for fighting for the wrong cause = unchanged (rulez say split as you wish )
                        12 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland)
                        9 - Heinz Guderian (Germany) (Generals Lutz and Guderian must share the credit blitzkreig) -1
                        16 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR)
                        12 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany)
                        17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
                        10 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan)
                        16 - General George Patton (USA)

                        Eliminated:
                        1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
                        2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
                        3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
                        4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
                        5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
                        6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)
                        7th - General Omar Bradley (USA)
                        Blah

                        Comment


                        • 2 - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding --
                          8 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany)
                          12 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland)
                          9 - Heinz Guderian (Germany)
                          16 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR)
                          13 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany) +
                          17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
                          10 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan)
                          16 - General George Patton (USA)

                          Eliminated:
                          1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
                          2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
                          3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
                          4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
                          5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
                          6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)
                          7th - General Omar Bradley (USA)
                          Keep on Civin'
                          RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O

                          Comment


                          • 8 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany)
                            12 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland)
                            9 - Heinz Guderian (Germany)
                            17 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR) +
                            13 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany)
                            17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
                            10 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan)
                            16 - General George Patton (USA)

                            Eliminated:
                            1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
                            2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
                            3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
                            4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
                            5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
                            6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)
                            7th - General Omar Bradley (USA)
                            8th - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding (UK) --

                            JM
                            Jon Miller-
                            I AM.CANADIAN
                            GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                            Comment


                            • 8 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany)
                              12 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland)
                              8 - Heinz Guderian (Germany) -
                              17 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR)
                              13 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany)
                              18 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA) +
                              9 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan) -
                              16 - General George Patton (USA)

                              Eliminated:
                              1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
                              2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
                              3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
                              4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
                              5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
                              6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)
                              7th - General Omar Bradley (USA)
                              8th - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding (UK)
                              "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                              Comment

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