WW2 generals - hurt or heal

[Geronimo]

I would also suggest that Doolittle probably was a superior strategist and tactician to Dowding and as he is not even listed I may start knocking Dowding down instead.

[Egbert]

Dowding commanded the Royal Air Force in the Battle of Britain. The Germans had definite air superiority, until the RAF won. I think the mark of a good military leader is somebody who can defeat a larger or stronger force and Dowding did that. Of course having radar helped. And the Battle of Britain would surely be one of the most important battles in the war. Had that battle been lost Britain would almost certainly have either forced to make peace on terms agreeable to Germany or lost the war.
I know nothing of Doolittle other than that he had some connection to an American air raid on Tokyo called "the Doolittle Raid". That is the sum total of my knowledge of Doolittle so I can not comment on him.

[Jon Miller]

I think I remember Doolittle, but he was American. I agree that Dowding had a large impact.

JM

[Jon Miller]

I also agree that about now is the time for Dowding to go.

Unless someone has arguments in his favor?

JM

[Egbert]

See the above comment

[Proteus_MST]

11 - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding
12 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany)
8 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland) +
11 - Heinz Guderian (Germany) (Generals Lutz and Guderian must share the credit blitzkreig)
14 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR)
12 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany)
17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
12 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan)
4 - General Omar Bradley (USA) --
16 - General George Patton (USA)

Eliminated:
1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)

[PLATO]

General Omar Bradley (USA) -- too many clear mistakes not enough clear successes which can be attributed to him

Bradley transformed the 82nd Infantry Division into the first Airborne Division, was a frontline commander in Operation Torch, Commanded II Corp in Tunisia and Sicily, commanded 1st Army at Normandy, was senior military commander in U.S. during Korean War, was first Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and was instrumental in persuading Truman to fire MacArthur.

I guess I am not familiar with his "clear mistakes" and would like to learn more. Can you outline a few of them?

[Geronimo]

Bradley transformed the 82nd Infantry Division into the first Airborne Division, was a frontline commander in Operation Torch, Commanded II Corp in Tunisia and Sicily, commanded 1st Army at Normandy, was senior military commander in U.S. during Korean War, was first Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and was instrumental in persuading Truman to fire MacArthur.

I guess I am not familiar with his "clear mistakes" and would like to learn more. Can you outline a few of them?

It was his decision to refuse to use most of the British funny tank designs offered to the Americans for D-Day.

He and Monty share blame for the Falaise gap.

He shares responsibility for the substantially shorter Naval bombardment at the american D-day beaches.

[PLATO]

It was his decision to refuse to use most of the British funny tank designs offered to the Americans for D-Day.

Thanks for this. I had never read much on this subject. Indeed this was a demonstrated error:

"But during the American landings – code-named Utah and Omaha beaches – the DDs fared far worse. Willey says the US commanders stayed rigidly to the original plan, launching their tanks from at least two miles away. At Omaha, most of the DD tanks launched sank in the choppy waters."

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20160603-the-strange-tanks-that-helped-win-d-day

Was this Bradley's decision alone? It appears that it was a consensus U.S. command blunder from that quote

He and Monty share blame for the Falaise gap.

"Although Patton might have spun a line across the narrow neck, I doubted his ability to hold it. Nineteen German divisions were now stampeding to escape the trap. Meanwhile, with four divisions George was already blocking three principal escape routes through Alencon, Sees and Argentan. Had he stretched that line to include Falaise, he would have extended his roadblock a distance of 40 miles (64 km). The enemy could not only have broken through, but he might have trampled Patton's position in the onrush. I much preferred a solid shoulder at Argentan to the possibility of a broken neck at Falaise."

— Omar Bradley

He shares responsibility for the substantially shorter Naval bombardment at the american D-day beaches.

"Since troops were scheduled to land at Utah and Omaha starting at 06:30 (an hour earlier than the British beaches), these areas received only about 40 minutes of naval bombardment before the assault troops began to land on the shore"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandy_landings

This doesn't appear to have been a tactical decision that Bradley made on the spot but more of a strategic decision made before the landings. Minesweepers had just finished clearing the area and that appears by plan as well. If this is a strategic decision then not sure how we can assign blame to Bradley. He may have participated in the strategic decision, but it would not have been him alone (and we don't know what his input would have been at that decision making point either).

[Ming]

11 - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding
12 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany)
8 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland)
11 - Heinz Guderian (Germany) (Generals Lutz and Guderian must share the credit blitzkreig)
14 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR)
13 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany) +
17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
12 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan)
2 - General Omar Bradley (USA) --
16 - General George Patton (USA)

Eliminated:
1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)

[EPW]

11 - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding
10 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany) --
8 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland)
11 - Heinz Guderian (Germany) (Generals Lutz and Guderian must share the credit blitzkreig)
14 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR)
13 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany)
17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
12 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan)
2 - General Omar Bradley (USA)
17 - General George Patton (USA) +

Eliminated:
1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)

[BeBMan]

11 - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding
10 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany)
8 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland)
10 - Heinz Guderian (Germany) (Generals Lutz and Guderian must share the credit blitzkreig) -1 early successful, but no impact after Dec 41. Should have used his free time to join the resistance
15 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR) +1 Beria never forget
13 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany)
17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
12 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan)
2 - General Omar Bradley (USA)
16 - General George Patton (USA) -1 for slapping his own guys

Eliminated:
1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)[/QUOTE]

[Egbert]

I have read a lot more books about Americans than non-Americans.

JM

I daresay who gets mentioned in those books depends upon which country you happen to be in. There also seem to be significant differences of opinion about each general depending upon which country you live in.

Example. If you read an American book about WW1 you read that Pershing was regarded as an excellent general. If you read an Australian book you learn that Pershing was regarded as useless and cowardly.

[EPW]

And in American books Australians aren't even mentioned.

[Egbert]

One very important factor that is not mentioned in any books is .... oil.

The Americans had plenty of their own oil, the Soviets had enough oil of their own, the other allies had access to plenty of oil.

Germany and Japan were both desperately short of oil.

[Geronimo]

One very important factor that is not mentioned in any books is .... oil.

The Americans had plenty of their own oil, the Soviets had enough oil of their own, the other allies had access to plenty of oil.

Germany and Japan were both desperately short of oil.

This is mentioned and typically expounded on in all general treatments of world war 2 that I've ever seen.

[Geronimo]

9 - Air Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding --
10 - Field Marshal Erich von Manstein (Germany)
9 - Emil Mannerheim (Finland)+
10 - Heinz Guderian (Germany) (Generals Lutz and Guderian must share the credit blitzkreig) -1 early successful, but no impact after Dec 41. Should have used his free time to join the resistance
15 - General Georgi Zhukov (USSR)
13 - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel (Germany)
17 - Admiral Chester Nimitz (USA)
12 - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan)
2 - General Omar Bradley (USA)
16 - General George Patton (USA)

Eliminated:
1st - General Tomoyuki Yamash ita (Japan)
2nd - Field Marshal Walter Model (Germany)
3rd - Field Marshal Albert Kesselring (Germany)
4th - General Douglas MacArthur (USA)
5th - Bernard Montgomery (UK)
6th - Marshal Phillipe Leclerc (France)