Prediction Thread: When Will Ukraine Conquer Russia

[Lorizael]

I mean what else was Putin going to do?

Not invade Ukraine and kill a bunch of people?

[Lorizael]

Perhaps it's you guys being fed US propaganda, just like all the lies that emerged about Iraq like WMDs etc. How many of the usual suspects here got sucked in by that, I know I certainly wasn't. So yeah, my views have been remarkably consistent, actually.

Pretty sure the consistent view here would be: imperialist powers shouldn't invade other countries and kill a bunch of people. That was my view in 2003 and my view now.

[MOBIUS]

Pretty sure the consistent view here would be: imperialist powers shouldn't invade other countries and kill a bunch of people. That was my view in 2003 and my view now.

Pretty sure that realism trumps the wilful blindness of wishful thinking...

When Ukraine ultimately agrees to promise not to join NATO, people are going to wonder why they didn't simply do that in the first place...?

[MOBIUS]

Not invade Ukraine and kill a bunch of people?

Putin has been a known quantity for at least 20+ years now. In 2003, the United Nations called Grozny the most destroyed city on Earth, with not a single building left undamaged!

(The UK rewarded Putin with a state visit where he got to meet the Queen)

Putin used the same tactics on Aleppo in 2016...

I ask you again, what else was Putin going to do...?

[MOBIUS]

NATO expanding was a consequence of Russian imperialist aggression, not the other way round. The Baltics and the Warsaw pact readily remembered Moscow's yoke, and applied to join NATO as soon as they could.

Your post here reads something like 'the Soviet Union is responsible for Pinochet's coup of Allende in Chile. They knew America was the USA's backyard and still gave him support.' It's excusing a bully, and also disgustingly treats people that aren't a major world power as incapable of having agency.

What Russian imperialist aggression? I think you'll find that NATO expanded when Russia was too weak to do anything about it, not the other way around.

The Warsaw Pact was created as a response to the creation of NATO, not the other way around.

Again, romantic wishful thinking of 'playing fair' in the face of realism - with the added hypocrisy that probably the biggest 'bully' in the world is in fact the United States...

Austria used to be divided in the same way that Germany was, however the Soviets pulled out once they got the assurances they wanted from the Austrians. Finland was able to exist peacefully in the Soviet's backyard because they didn't take sides. Even the events in Hungary and Czechoslovakia are more nuanced than are generally reported in the West... Etc. etc.

You guys need a history lesson that doesn't just begin with 'Putin invaded Ukraine, he's teh evil!'

[EPW]

Oh god not another one.

[BeBMan]

If Putin invested more in combat capability than in online trolling the world could be in trouble.

[BeBMan]

I guess NATO-Navalny crossed a lot of red lines, so Putin was basically forced to do something.

[N35t0r]

What Russian imperialist aggression? I think you'll find that NATO expanded when Russia was too weak to do anything about it, not the other way around.

This... doesn't exactly make the point you want to push.

NATO didn't expand in Eastern Europe because it invaded all those countries. It expanded because all those countries knew Russia would want them under their heel sooner or later... And they didn't exactly enjoy the last time they were.

[Bereta_Eder]

I repsect mobius for his left wing ideas but on this i disagree with him even though I see his point (which is pure russian propaganda)

Ukranians deserve to be free and in europe. simple as that

[N35t0r]

His "Putin is a bully so we should let him do whatever he wants" is also dumb as hell

[Lorizael]

No one has ever adequately explained to me how countries voluntarily deciding to join the "please don't invade me, Russia" defensive pact hurts Russia (other than making it harder for Russia to invade countries).

[Bereta_Eder]

And to further accentuate your point the only nations in europe that did not move fast enough to enter NATO are now either satellites, colonies or invaded by Russia. All of them.

And the ones that were fast, are not

[Bereta_Eder]

Actually I think that for every european nation (except possibly wales) standing up to russia is an identity issue too

[giblets]

Putin is a war criminal, I guess we should have kept appeasing him and making concessions to him

[N35t0r]

I mean, it worked with Hitler, right? Chamberlain and Daladier did achieve their peace for our time in Munich.