Prediction Thread: When Will Ukraine Conquer Russia

[Geronimo]

My 'definition' is about the victims of an 8 year war getting to vote for their freedom and you're comparing them to slave owners? Slavery was not self determination so no, I wouldn't support the south. Your analogy would be better if northern states seceded rather than help perpetuate slavery and they got attacked by the south. That would at least compare the slave owners to the puppet masters feeding Ukrainians to the war machine.

The individual is sovereign and we all have borders. I'm American, the only international rule we have is do what we say. In that phone call with Pyatt and Nuland before the coup when she chose Ukraine's next leader she said f the EU or something to that effect. What international rule says the USA can pick Ukraine's next leader? Or invade Iraq over phony WMD. What international rule says massacring cops and protesters to get rid of sitting leaders has the world's approval? My thought process: the people of the Donbas did not attack Kiev, they protested the coup and Kiev attacked them. Yes and yes... and Tibet. I draw lines where I see right and wrong.

There is so much face palm in this it's going to take a while to respond.

[Berzerker]

Hopefully without more analogies

[pchang]

Looks like Russia blew the dam by Kherson. Ukraine must have been about to cross the river.

[EPW]

War crimes intensifying.

[BeBMan]

Apart from being a disaster and warcrime - is it also an admission that Kherson is not Russia? What's the world coming to when you can't even trust annexations declared in the Kremlin anymore

[Geronimo]

My 'definition' is about the victims of an 8 year war getting to vote for their freedom and you're comparing them to slave owners? Slavery was not self determination so no, I wouldn't support the south. Your analogy would be better if northern states seceded rather than help perpetuate slavery and they got attacked by the south. That would at least compare the slave owners to the puppet masters feeding Ukrainians to the war machine.

Do you know what 'voting' in Russian occupied Ukraine has been? Armed teams of Russian soldiers visit your home. There are no publicized rules for collection of the vote. Instead the soldiers may choose to verbally ask you your choice and write it down for you out of sight. Do you call that 'getting to vote for their freedom'? How are such elections in any way 'self determination'? How will self determination exist in any way for the Donbas residents after being annexed to Russia?

The individual is sovereign and we all have borders. I'm American, the only international rule we have is do what we say. In that phone call with Pyatt and Nuland before the coup when she chose Ukraine's next leader she said f the EU or something to that effect. What international rule says the USA can pick Ukraine's next leader? Or invade Iraq over phony WMD. What international rule says massacring cops and protesters to get rid of sitting leaders has the world's approval? My thought process: the people of the Donbas did not attack Kiev, they protested the coup and Kiev attacked them. Yes and yes... and Tibet. I draw lines where I see right and wrong.

Why do you say Nuland chose the leader? The leaked phonecall?

Https://www.BBC.com/news/world-europe-26079957

Quote me the juicy bit that demonstrates that Nuland controlled the selection process or even held decisive influence.

Everything about the conversation sounds like someone on the outside of a process trying to influence it. It makes no sense as an individual in control of the process or representing someone in control of the process.

Why wouldn't you expect foreign governments to have preferences in the selection and to connive internally about what those preferences are? If the US lost patience with the EU and decided to push independent of the EU we'd expect just what we see. If the US was directing the selection this conversation would be totally unnecessary.

You maintain that Ukrainians were disenfranchised by US control. How could such control be exercised?

We know from Putin's 2014 top Ukraine advisor's public comments in a 06MAR2014 Kommersant.ua interview that Russia pushed the bizarre interpretation of the Budapest memorandum that it required the UK, Russia and the US to "intervene" in the event of a "coup" in Ukraine and that Viktor Yanukovych was justified in use of force and that Russia was justified and required to "intervene" in Ukraine. If the US controlled Ukraine, given these comments by Russia why wouldn't we expect Russia to simply take over control by whatever levers the US was exercising? It obviously wouldn't be self-restraint stopping them, in light of those comments.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26068994

The only interpretation that makes sense is that both powers moved to influence but that Ukrainians remained in control.

I thought you didn't like "analogies'? Now you bring up Iraq? I do think your fear of "analogies" obviously arises from the light they shed on your cognitive dissonance and double standards.

If the US in Iraq in 2003 was wrong then Russia in Ukraine 2014 and 2022 was wrong for nearly all of the same reasons.

[Geronimo]

Sorry Berz. Such a long reply on a phone requires lots of edits and lots of edits eventually lead the post to be banished to approval land.

[Geronimo]

My 'definition' is about the victims of an 8 year war getting to vote for their freedom and you're comparing them to slave owners? Slavery was not self determination so no, I wouldn't support the south. Your analogy would be better if northern states seceded rather than help perpetuate slavery and they got attacked by the south. That would at least compare the slave owners to the puppet masters feeding Ukrainians to the war machine.

Do you know what 'voting' in Russian occupied Ukraine has been? Armed teams of Russian soldiers visit your home. There are no publicized rules for collection of the vote. Instead the soldiers may choose to verbally ask you your choice and write it down for you out of sight. Do you call that 'getting to vote for their freedom'? How are such elections in any way 'self determination'? How will self determination exist in any way for the Donbas residents after being annexed to Russia?

The individual is sovereign and we all have borders. I'm American, the only international rule we have is do what we say. In that phone call with Pyatt and Nuland before the coup when she chose Ukraine's next leader she said f the EU or something to that effect. What international rule says the USA can pick Ukraine's next leader? Or invade Iraq over phony WMD. What international rule says massacring cops and protesters to get rid of sitting leaders has the world's approval? My thought process: the people of the Donbas did not attack Kiev, they protested the coup and Kiev attacked them. Yes and yes... and Tibet. I draw lines where I see right and wrong.

Why do you say Nuland chose the leader? The leaked phonecall?

Https://www.BBC.com/news/world-europe-26079957

Quote me the juicy bit that demonstrates that Nuland controlled the selection process or even held decisive influence.

Everything about the conversation sounds like someone on the outside of a process trying to influence it. It makes no sense as an individual in control of the process or representing someone in control of the process.

Why wouldn't you expect foreign governments to have preferences in the selection and to connive internally about what those preferences are? If the US lost patience with the EU and decided to push independent of the EU we'd expect just what we see. If the US was directing the selection this conversation would be totally unnecessary.

You maintain that Ukrainians were disenfranchised by US control. How could such control be exercised?

We know from Putin's 2014 top Ukraine advisor's public comments in a 06MAR2014 Kommersant.ua interview that Russia pushed the bizarre interpretation of the Budapest memorandum that it required the UK, Russia and the US to "intervene" in the event of a "coup" in Ukraine and that Viktor Yanukovych was justified in use of force and that Russia was justified and required to "intervene" in Ukraine. If the US controlled Ukraine, given these comments by Russia why wouldn't we expect Russia to simply take over control by whatever levers the US was exercising? It obviously wouldn't be self-restraint stopping them, in light of those comments.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26068994

The only interpretation that makes sense is that both powers moved to influence but that Ukrainians remained in control.

I thought you didn't like "analogies'? Now you bring up Iraq? I do think your fear of "analogies" obviously arises from the light they shed on your cognitive dissonance and double standards.

If the US in Iraq in 2003 was wrong then Russia in Ukraine 2014 and 2022 was wrong for nearly all of the same reasons.

[Dinner]

https://youtu.be/gRbKz_j1rbc

[N35t0r]

There's some more evidence that Ukraine might have been behind the Nordstream bombings.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/06/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-ukraine-russia/

[Berzerker]

Did the US have intelligence of a detailed US plan?

[N35t0r]

Did the US have intelligence of a detailed US plan?

You're making even less sense than usual.

[Berzerker]

Just wondering if the US had a plan to destroy the pipeline and if US intel knew about it

Roger Waters is being criticized for a concert in Berlin, apparently he has minimized the holocaust with his "The Wall" performance. Berlin police are investigating him for glorifying fascism because of the character he portrays during the concert. Pink Floyd has been doing that for decades but now its antisemitic? David Gilmour and the millions of Pink Floyd fans have some explaining to do.

[Berzerker]

Do you know what 'voting' in Russian occupied Ukraine has been? Armed teams of Russian soldiers visit your home. There are no publicized rules for collection of the vote. Instead the soldiers may choose to verbally ask you your choice and write it down for you out of sight. Do you call that 'getting to vote for their freedom'? How are such elections in any way 'self determination'? How will self determination exist in any way for the Donbas residents after being annexed to Russia?


Why do you say Nuland chose the leader? The leaked phonecall?

Https://www.BBC.com/news/world-europe-26079957

Quote me the juicy bit that demonstrates that Nuland controlled the selection process or even held decisive influence.

Everything about the conversation sounds like someone on the outside of a process trying to influence it. It makes no sense as an individual in control of the process or representing someone in control of the process.

Why wouldn't you expect foreign governments to have preferences in the selection and to connive internally about what those preferences are? If the US lost patience with the EU and decided to push independent of the EU we'd expect just what we see. If the US was directing the selection this conversation would be totally unnecessary.

You maintain that Ukrainians were disenfranchised by US control. How could such control be exercised?

We know from Putin's 2014 top Ukraine advisor's public comments in a 06MAR2014 Kommersant.ua interview that Russia pushed the bizarre interpretation of the Budapest memorandum that it required the UK, Russia and the US to "intervene" in the event of a "coup" in Ukraine and that Viktor Yanukovych was justified in use of force and that Russia was justified and required to "intervene" in Ukraine. If the US controlled Ukraine, given these comments by Russia why wouldn't we expect Russia to simply take over control by whatever levers the US was exercising? It obviously wouldn't be self-restraint stopping them, in light of those comments.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26068994

The only interpretation that makes sense is that both powers moved to influence but that Ukrainians remained in control.

I thought you didn't like "analogies'? Now you bring up Iraq? I do think your fear of "analogies" obviously arises from the light they shed on your cognitive dissonance and double standards.

If the US in Iraq in 2003 was wrong then Russia in Ukraine 2014 and 2022 was wrong for nearly all of the same reasons.

People have been voting in these regions for decades, they voted for independence and joining Ukraine and elected the guy toppled in the coup. They voted for Minsk and to stay in Ukraine. Was that Putin's plan? Did the Soviets rig the votes for independence when their union broke up? No, I dont want Moscow or Kiev or Washington deciding their future.

What part of Nuland and Pyatt choosing the replacement and meeting with all 3 for confirmation qualifies as "outside" the process? How did we control Ukraine? Money and terror. Whoever was behind the coup, we embraced it. We armed and funded fine people and praised them or looked the other way. When the media wouldn't ignore Ukraine's Nazi problem Congress said no more weapons to Azov and the Pentagon ignored them while congressmen went to Ukraine to honor our freedom fighters.

Zelensky ran on ending the war and won with ~3/4 of the vote and I think that didn't even include millions of votes from eastern Ukrainians who couldn't because of the war. The voters were over-ruled by the Ukrainian right wing and the west. Your analogies dont make sense, you compared arming ISIS to arming North Vietnam (huh?) and when I questioned your logic you blamed my lack of imagination. Iraq is evidence the USA only cares about international rules when they serve the USA's purpose. Now you're comparing US-Iraq to Russia-Ukraine, but Iraq was not waging a proxy war along the US border killing ethnic Americans.

[Dinner]

A pretty good break down of details about the dam including the mines and explosives Russia had placed there during its retreat last year. I.S. claims it has evidence proving Russia is behind the destruction of the dam.

https://youtu.be/t-HLyoSD5lg