German government trying to force children to go to mosque

[Ben Kenobi]

Considering how young the Canadian and US-American societies are in comparison (with most churches probably less than 2 centuries old) and also consdiering that (AFAIK) neither in the USA nor Canadian history christian religious organizations (like the catholic church) played an as dominant role as in european history I can understand that there are only few school excursions to christian places of worship in Canada

Yes, the history, especially surrounding the Kulturkampf in Germany is very different than here in Canada. For the most part Canada has generally been supportive of Christianity, but that is quickly changing. My upbringing was not much different than most folks around me. The vaguely Christian way of life without the actual mass attendance, etc. The changes to the social studies curriculum were a novelty at the time. I remember them being introduced. Prior to that, Canadian education didn't make a distinction between the sacred and the secular wrt education, but again, I don't have direct experience of it because it was before my time.

I've only recently been aware of the history of Catholicism in Germany, which has personal significance to me, as my family were German Catholics in Warmia. That, in itself is fascinating history. I have no idea as to whether they were recent settlers in Warmia who came during the Polish years or whether they were Germans who settled there before Poland took it over, and stayed both German and Catholic. We didn't know ourselves that this was the case until very recently when a cousin did some digging and finally found the names in the Catholic rolls.

[Ben Kenobi]

Gian, I just rechecked, you say it, but I don't see a source for it.

[Giancarlo]

They weren't forced to go to the mosque. Re-read it more carefully. Maybe take off your sunglasses.

[Bereta_Eder]

German Catholics in Warmia.

I wonder how the protestant germans feel about the catholic germans. Do they regard them as texans?

[Ben Kenobi]

They weren't forced to go to the mosque. Re-read it more carefully. Maybe take off your sunglasses.

I did. I still don't see a source for your claim that the child was permitted to go to school but not attend the field trip.

[Proteus_MST]

I wonder how the protestant germans feel about the catholic germans. Do they regard them as texans?

Fortunately the catholic sheep in germany usually aren't as conservative as their shepherds.
Except maybe in some remote regions in Bavaria
For example I have little doubts that 80-90% if the catholic girls and boys here in Ruhr Valley (at least those who grew up in the 80s onwards) had sex before marriage ... and I guess that only a tiny minority of the (northern) german catholic couples actually limits themselves to Knauss Ongino for the (only allowed) method of contraception (and instead use condoms, the pill or even more modern methods)

For this reason there are often quarrels between the higher clerics and the believers ... sometimes even between the Vatican and lower clerics ... for example once when during an ecumenical church assembly one catjolic prierst dared to visit an evangelical sacrament. This priest got himself into a loit of trouble with the Vatican

[Bereta_Eder]

Thanks

The power of poly you sometimes get to learn things

[giblets]

Is Ben thinking of running over Muslims with his car?

[BlackCat]

Is Ben thinking

Didn't knew that that was possible.

[Proteus_MST]

Thanks

The power of poly you sometimes get to learn things

I just googled the topic and can now give even more current informations which are very very interesting:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/catholic-survey-shows-deep-frustration-within-the-church-a-946069.html

Obviously the Vatican sent out a questionaire to its bishoprics worldwide in order to get an assessment about its believers worldwide.
In germany the chairman of the german bishops conference gave the survey to the bishops, butg gave the explicit order, that certain question blocks (among them, the blocks about contraception, sex before marriage and homosexuality) should be withheld from the sheep themselves, but rather be answered by the catholic bishops "in accordance with the cazholic teachings".
Obviously he already was aware about, what he would get back if those questions would be answered truthfully by the catholic sheep.

Unfortunately for him, someone from the english catholic church posted the whole questionnaire online, including the censored questions, one low ranking catholic Pastor discovered it, rewrote it in an easier to understand language and distributed it in his own parish.
From there this (complete and easier to read) questionnaire then spread throughout the german catholic base, with several catholic laymen organizations taking care that the questionnaire got distributed to the actual believers ... and then took care that the filled out (and complete) questionnaires be returned to the bishops.
It is doubtful that those (truthful answered) questionnaires actually reached the pope (rather it is likely that they afterwards got censored/rewritten to be in accordance with catholic teachings, just as the chairman of the german bishoips conference wanted), but the results speak for themselves.

Even in Bavaria 87 % of the youth don't see using contraceptives as a sin (and wouldn't confess it to their pastor), sex before marriage isn't a problem for even 96%

Regarding the use of contraceptives, many of the respondents see, that their responsibility towards their partner weights heavier than their responsibility towards the teachings of the church:

...
The most contentious issue is the church's strict prohibition of contraception, which almost all Catholics ignore. "The overwhelming majority explain their decision-making on these issues by referring to their responsibility to their partners," reads an assessment by the Diocese of Rottenburg-Stuttgart.
...

Actually this absolutely reflects my experience with my catholic classmates (which were about/below 50% of the class) during the 80s/beginning 90s. They would have answered similar

Especially funny

...
A question that asked respondents about their knowledge of the doctrine of "Humanae vitae" was also the source of great confusion. "Ten out of 10 random respondents thought it referred to an invigorating body lotion," reads a questionnaire received at the diocese in Mainz.
...

Also with regards to the homosexuals the position of the RCC is at odds with the opinions of its german believers:

...
Another group the church accused of committing sins also enjoys considerable support from the base: homosexuals. "Many Christians cannot understand this attitude," the staff of Cologne's Cardinal Joachim Meisner concluded after reading the survey responses they received. In fact, Catholics in Cologne are all too familiar with their conservative archbishop's condemnation of gays and lesbians. Now Meisner can read about the consequences in the analysis prepared by his own priests, who conclude: "Many have already turned away from the church. And many are convinced that this is no longer acceptable." ...

Would be interesting if the questionnaire got through to the catholic laymen in other countries ... and how they (if they were able/allowed to return it uncensored) answered

[Giancarlo]

I did. I still don't see a source for your claim that the child was permitted to go to school but not attend the field trip.

Show me proof where the trip was required, lazy ass.

I love German guys... I'd kiss Bill Kaulitz.

[Ben Kenobi]

We already had a reformation, Proteus.

If it happened again, it would work out the same way it did last time. There would be a group that would split off and form their own church. Then another group would split off from the group that split off and so on and so forth.

The survey is interesting, but it speaks to the need for more and better catechesis, especially among young people. Is the role of the church to be a mirror or a model?

[Giancarlo]

I heard there are a lot of Turkish LGBT people in Germany by the way. A major community who have fled Turkey in recent years. Even Istanbul has seen a decline in acceptance.

[Bereta_Eder]

A question that asked respondents about their knowledge of the doctrine of "Humanae vitae" was also the source of great confusion. "Ten out of 10 random respondents thought it referred to an invigorating body lotion," reads a questionnaire received at the diocese in Mainz.

[Proteus_MST]

We already had a reformation, Proteus.

If it happened again, it would work out the same way it did last time. There would be a group that would split off and form their own church. Then another group would split off from the group that split off and so on and so forth.

The survey is interesting, but it speaks to the need for more and better catechesis, especially among young people. Is the role of the church to be a mirror or a model?

Seems to me like german Catholics already found a way ... by either not confessing it (and practicing premarital sex and contraception without telling/asking the church), like already my catholic schoolmates did in the 80s ... or by leaving the catholic church.

What I find sad, however is, that the chairman of the catholic bishops conference in germany practiced censorship (by telling ther bishops to keep some critical questions away from the believers and instead telling them to answer the questions themselves).
Honestly, what use has a pope of a survey, if tit is manipulated in a way that it just shows what he assumingly wants to hear. How can he lead a chuirch if he is told lies?

And unfortunately this sort of cowardice can be found very widespread, in large corporations as well as governments (i.e. telling higher ups what they want to hear, instead of the truth).
The more commendable is the activity of the lower ranking priests and catholic laypeople organisations, who gave a damn about the censorship of the bishops and took care to distribute the complete questionnaiure and to return the real results to the bishop (even if those probably didn't relay the real results to the Vatican)