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  • Okay, to take those points in turn:

    A little reflection should tell you that it would have been impossible for the crusaders to wade ankle-deep in blood, unless they happened to herd the entire Muslim and Jewish population into an empty swimming pool before killing them. That's a bizarre case where one guy's obvious hyperbole got taken literally for the sake of propaganda. Jerusalem and the equally bloody capture of Acre were the two most notorious sacks of the Crusades in the Holy Land--but that's a period of two centuries, or slightly less. Most of the time cities changed hands in a more or less orderly fashion by contemporary standards. Of course, contemporary standards included a fair amount of rape and looting. I've read that a number of prominent nobles went on Crusade because they saw it as the only way to save their souls after sacking monasteries, violating nuns, etc.

    The Albigensian Crusade was a gruesome piece of work, but about the same as you'd expect if a largish region had declared their temporal lords illegitimate, stopped paying feudal dues, and set up their own parallel hierarchy. I suppose peasant revolts would be such an equivalent, though I'm unaware of any happening on such a scale. As for the eyeball atrocity, the same thing happened on a far larger scale in the Byzantine Empire as part of a purely secular battle against the Bulgars (who may have been Christian at the time, can't recall). Basil II ("the Bulgar Slayer") was famous for a battle where he supposedly took 15K survivors, divided them up into hundreds, and gouged 199 eyeballs per set. Dude just really hated Bulgarians.

    Finally, you return to the Crusades; you seem to have some very inaccurate ideas about them. In reality, the Crusades were marked by frequent cross-confessional cooperation. They had to be; since most crusaders simply returned home after doing a bit of fighting, the kingdoms of Outremer could only be maintained by careful diplomacy, especially with the local labor. If you want Muslim farmers to tend crops for you, an infidel, you really have to offer them very generous terms. The Second Crusade failed in part because the crusaders failed to understand such realpolitik and attacked Damascus--which was one of Jerusalem's key Arab allies against Saladin. Jerusalem was recaptured shortly after. A decade or so passed, and Frederick III won Jerusalem back--by effectively leasing it from the Muslim lord who inherited it from Saladin. He didn't really give a damn if the Franks owned a third-rate city of no economic importance, provided they didn't rebuild the walls.
    1011 1100
    Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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    • btw the comic artist is Tomaz Lavric (he's slovenian)

      https://www.amazon.fr/Fables-Bosnie-.../dp/2723427315 (in french :/)
      Last edited by Bereta_Eder; November 7, 2016, 12:56. Reason: apelation controlee

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      • It doesn't help a religion, of course, if its holiest book contains bloodthirsty passages that are (among others) about the main god ordering genocides ... and rules about killing your relatives if they become apostates and killing whole villages if its inhabitants give hospitality to propehts of other faiths.
        Holiest book? Really? I seriously doubt that any Christian would cite Judges as the 'holiest book of the bible.'

        Personally, I'm big on Romans and Hebrews if I have to pick just one. Romans really speaks to me.

        A problem all 3 major religions of the book have ... and while sane elements of the 3 religions just interpret their holy book in a way that disregards the bloodthirsty passages of the book, history has shown time and again that there are other groups within the 3 religions that convince believers that exactly the bloodthirsty passages are the ones that have to be followed
        The bible has a very interesting history. When was Judges written? And by whom? Unlike most religions the Bible didn't come together in one day. Just looking at the Old Testament, it, itself, has been put together over time and didn't always have the form that it has now. How many Jews do you see citing Judges as justification for going to war and destroying others? I've never seen a single one do that - and it is their book moreso than it's ever been ours.

        I always find that odd. Folks blame Christians for a book that Christians never wrote. If it's Christianity you have an issue with, wouldn't it make more sense to quote the New Testament?

        That being said, - why the Amalekites? The Amalekites attempted to eradicate the Jews when the Jews were passing through their territory by cutting them off of water when they came out of the desert. The Jews were not a big people then, nor were they that powerful. The Jews did not instigate things, anymore so than they instigated the holocaust.
        Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
        "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
        2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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        • About the conquest of Jerusalem it is said, that the crusaders slew so many people (men, women, old and young) that the crusaders waded ankle deep in blood.
          Are you aware that Jerusalem had been a Christian city? It wasn't conquered, it was recovered. The fact that there weren't Christians in there still, (or very many) doesn't strike you as significant? Where did all the Christians go?

          1. When the town of Beziers was sacked by the catholic crusaders, a soldier asked the leader of the army, a catholic abbot, what to do with the civilians (i.e. how to divide catholics from Cathars). His answer was: Kill them all, as the LORD knows who belongs to him.
          You might want to read the source some. The actual histories of the period don't actually contain that phrase. I know, I was surprised too. But if you look at the medieval histories, this is more fable than fact. The origin, (natch) stems from Protestants of several centuries later.

          It seems to me as if in non religious wars (despite the soldiers, after successful sieges, being given their 3 days of punishment free looting and raping) the survival of the population (of said conquered cities/villages) was of bigger concern to the victors ... whereas in crusades all form of torture and killings were less of a problem, as the civilians of the defeated party just were bloody heathens
          More people died on 9-11 then died in the Inquisition throughout history. You're basically citing folks like Luther and Calvin without being aware of it.
          Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
          "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
          2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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          • Dammit BK, you can't even keep your bad arguments straight. He's arguing that all religion causes violence; noting that the religion-driven violence of 9/11 was worse than the Inquisition is utterly counterproductive.
            1011 1100
            Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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            • Originally posted by Elok View Post
              Finally, you return to the Crusades; you seem to have some very inaccurate ideas about them. In reality, the Crusades were marked by frequent cross-confessional cooperation. They had to be; since most crusaders simply returned home after doing a bit of fighting, the kingdoms of Outremer could only be maintained by careful diplomacy, especially with the local labor. If you want Muslim farmers to tend crops for you, an infidel, you really have to offer them very generous terms. The Second Crusade failed in part because the crusaders failed to understand such realpolitik and attacked Damascus--which was one of Jerusalem's key Arab allies against Saladin. Jerusalem was recaptured shortly after. A decade or so passed, and Frederick III won Jerusalem back--by effectively leasing it from the Muslim lord who inherited it from Saladin. He didn't really give a damn if the Franks owned a third-rate city of no economic importance, provided they didn't rebuild the walls.
              That's a good point - it kicks in natually only after the 1st crusade - surely the one most influenced by religious zeal - was over. Whether this kind of "fundamentalism" was a/the core reason for the massacre at the end in Jerusalem is hard to establish, it might have acted as "amplification" just like extremist ideologies acted in a similar way in the 20th century, but 11/12th century warfare esp. in regard to sieges (way more than regular battles on the field) was already quite brutal.
              Blah

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              • He's arguing that all religion causes violence; noting that the religion-driven violence of 9/11 was worse than the Inquisition is utterly counterproductive.
                Then why is Proteus citing Christian example after Christian example? Where are his Jewish examples, if he sincerely believes that 'all religions cause violence'? Jews wrote Judges. Surely he's got some Jewish examples to back him up.
                Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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                • I don't think any of the dead from 9-11 would later die because of the Inquisition...
                  Indifference is Bliss

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                  • ... the Jews pretty much massacred everyone if they could get away with it in ancient times (like pretty much everyone else was doing at the time).
                    Indifference is Bliss

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                    • This is what I get for responding to him, isn't it?
                      1011 1100
                      Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
                        Then why is Proteus citing Christian example after Christian example? Where are his Jewish examples, if he sincerely believes that 'all religions cause violence'? Jews wrote Judges. Surely he's got some Jewish examples to back him up.
                        Because I saw no need to.

                        Muslim religous violence is very well covered in the news (just looks at IS)

                        And for jewish religous violence you just have to look at nowadays Israel and the religous motivated settler movement.
                        You will find lots of examples of violence commited by jews who dream of Eretz Israel ... the great Israel (including the palestinian territories, just without palestinians in them) that was promised to them by god.
                        Most of the land grabs of the settlers (by illegal settlements which later are legalized by the jewish state) are religiously motivated by the "dream" of / belief in the Eretz Israel of the old testament. Likewise a lot of violence commited by (especially youth) members of the settler movement towards palestinians is caused by this
                        Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                        Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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                        • Originally posted by Elok View Post
                          Dammit BK, you can't even keep your bad arguments straight. He's arguing that all religion causes violence; noting that the religion-driven violence of 9/11 was worse than the Inquisition is utterly counterproductive.
                          Actually only half true.
                          My argument is that most religions have a danger of causing violence (i.e. a chance, not a certainty) ... expecially if their holy scriptures contain passages that can be seen as the main god of the religion seeing certain types of violence as positive.

                          Which is also why I specifically mentioned "old religions".
                          There are newer religions that don't have such a danger ... for example Unitarian Universalism (which sees religion as a means for spiritual growth)
                          Although one might argue that UU is a Meta-Religion (insofar as you can be a christian and still become an UU, or a muslim or jew and become an UU and so on)
                          (I also would see Zen-Buddhismin a similar light ... as a religion that doesn't has such a big danger of causing religious violence)

                          But yes, of course Bens arguments are contraproductive for the case, considering that it wasn't aimed specifically at christianity, but all religious violence
                          Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                          Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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                          • UU isn't a religion so much as a social club for agnostics. As a haiku I once read put it:

                            UUs welcome all
                            even theists, but please don't
                            vote Republican

                            Don't know about Zen specifically and violence, but there have been warrior Buddhist monks in many countries. Religion is only one factor in a very complicated array of human motives. Sometimes it's a dominant factor, sometimes not. Anyway, post 241.
                            1011 1100
                            Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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                            • the Jews pretty much massacred everyone if they could get away with it in ancient times (like pretty much everyone else was doing at the time).
                              Like who? They were a smaller nation confronted by enormously powerful enemies in Egypt and in Babylonia. If they exterminated anyone, they did a pretty terrible job, getting evicted from Israel and scattered.
                              Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                              "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                              2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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                              • And for jewish religous violence you just have to look at nowadays Israel and the religous motivated settler movement.
                                Ok. So how many would you say have been killed by Jews in Israel trying to settle their own land?

                                You will find lots of examples of violence commited by jews who dream of Eretz Israel ... the great Israel (including the palestinian territories, just without palestinians in them) that was promised to them by god.
                                Where exactly are the Palestinian territories? Pretty sure if I asked Arafat, he'd say it was coterminous with Israel.

                                Most of the land grabs of the settlers (by illegal settlements which later are legalized by the jewish state) are religiously motivated by the "dream" of / belief in the Eretz Israel of the old testament. Likewise a lot of violence commited by (especially youth) members of the settler movement towards palestinians is caused by this
                                When I look at a map, I see Islamic governments stretching from Constantinople all the way out to the Indus River. I see Israel, itself at it's widest point, less than a hundred miles. And your issue is with Jewish settlement? Really? Israel is tiny. It's smaller than Slovenia.

                                considering that it wasn't aimed specifically at Christianity
                                Well you'll have to forgive me but when you cite exactly two arguments, both of them Christians, and then you attack Christians for the Book of Judges, what are we to think?
                                Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                                "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                                2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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