Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Ming]

Well, your experience is as worthless to Jon Miller as his are to you. Your opinions are just that, subjective opinions based on your own experiences. The create your reality, but seen from another perspective, your world is not the same as mine, or even Jon Millers.

And that's why we have freedom of religion in the US. We don't have to have any specific religion (or any religion) crammed down people's throats.
People can be spiritual in the way they believe, and not how somebody else believes. And one religion shouldn't be able to dictate laws.

And back to the opening post... That's why all Catholics should listen to the leader of the Church. Gays have been treated very poorly by Christians.
The Pope is just showing what a great follower of Jesus he is by spreading a message of peace and love.
Unfortunately, some Catholics are so bigoted that they don't want to listen carefully to his message.

[Giancarlo]

And that's why we have freedom of religion in the US. We don't have to have any specific religion (or any religion) crammed down people's throats.
People can be spiritual in the way they believe, and not how somebody else believes. And one religion shouldn't be able to dictate laws.

And back to the opening post... That's why all Catholics should listen to the leader of the Church. Gays have been treated very poorly by Christians.
The Pope is just showing what a great follower of Jesus he is by spreading a message of peace and love.
Unfortunately, some Catholics are so bigoted that they don't want to listen carefully to his message.

Some, like Ben, view themselves higher than the Pope. Gay people will continue to be mistreated by such people. The best we can do is mitigate and diminish the spread of their hate.

[giblets]

How dare gay people enjoy sex instead of using sex to make the world more overpopulated

[Jon Miller]

Your entire argument so far has been a convoluted form of 'WAHHHHH you're stupid and ignorant because you aren't referencing theology that I consider relevant in your arguments!!'. I can only assume that you are either incapable or just unwilling to question the actual foundations of your faith in ways that step outside your comfort zone. Worry not, I won't trouble your poor mind with any more uncomfortable concepts.

You refuse to consider any theology from the last 2000 years or even read the next paragraph of that you get pointed to by whatever website points you to things.

If I said something about economics but hadn't bothered to read the next paragraph from the standard textbooks or familarize myself with any of the arguments/etc, someone would rightly call me out on it. And I would be in the wrong if I then called that person stupid and uninformed and unwilling to question the actual foundations of economics. And I would be even more in the wrong if I proceeded to insult them when they helpfully pointed out that I was ignorant in every way of economics and the discussion of it.

Of course, you lack the basic decency or intellectual respectability to recognize this.

JM

[Giancarlo]

And there he goes again. Stop being so arrogant. Even your own religion warns against excessive hubris.

You are right on one thing, JM. People have called you out several times here.

[Jon Miller]

Awesome story!

I already said I did a lot of traveling and I have friends from various countries, even Iran. My Iranian friend is fully supportive of me as a person, and has a different mentality than older people in his country he tells me.

Your experience is unsupported and anecdotal at best. It doesn't really mean anything to me.

By the way, I am from a different country, was Catholic once, I am gay, and have done a lot of traveling throughout the world. So my experience is worthless right?

If you say that my perspective on religions/etc is worthless and not representative of atheists, theologians and religionists all over the world, then yes, your experience is wrong.

If it is that there is a lot of atheists, or people who are non-religious out there. And not only that, but there are lots of gay people in many nations both religious and otherwise, and even that there are some people who agree with you. Then of course you are right.

I have mostly responded to Kentonio because he has presented himself as asking serious questions about religion/etc (when they aren't, they are mostly stupid, and are known to be stupid by anyone who has studied the topic, there are non-stupid things that atheists and religionists can discuss but Kentonio does not seem to desire to do that) and not to you. My reply to you was based on you telling me that my experience and perspective on theology, atheists discussion of religion and discussion of religion with religious non-Christian people was invalid based on your polisci education.

JM

[Giancarlo]

If you say that my perspective on religions/etc is worthless and not representative of atheists, theologians and religionists all over the world, then yes, your experience is wrong.

If it is that there is a lot of atheists, or people who are non-religious out there. And not only that, but there are lots of gay people in many nations both religious and otherwise, and even that there are some people who agree with you. Then of course you are right.

I have mostly responded to Kentonio because he has presented himself as asking serious questions about religion/etc (when they aren't, they are mostly stupid, and are known to be stupid by anyone who has studied the topic, there are non-stupid things that atheists and religionists can discuss but Kentonio does not seem to desire to do that) and not to you. My reply to you was based on you telling me that my experience and perspective on theology, atheists discussion of religion and discussion of religion with religious non-Christian people was invalid based on your polisci education.

JM

Because... You say so. I don't have proof you even had those experiences. You don't have anything besides from your arrogance. You couldn't have possibly heard any other perspective with an open mind based on what I have seen you post. That inhibits your ability to be objective.

And your comment on my education is wrong. Downright wrong. I never said that. I said I studied other world views and cultures, as part of my education. That had absolutely zero to do with you, but was only about my own experience.

Again, cool story!

[Jon Miller]

And there he goes again. Stop being so arrogant. Even your own religion warns against excessive hubris.

You are right on one thing, JM. People have called you out several times here.

I am an academic. I rightfully ignore all sorts of stupid stuff people say about physics and mathematics (my fields).

I am not a trained theologian, but I have studied a lot of theology (more than most BA students) and philosophy including atheist and religious foundations (and other religions) and despite my 'amateur' status I can still recognise not only that Kentonio is not a trained theologian or philosopher, but that he is more ignorant of such discussions than the majority of 'amateur' and 'professional' people I engage in such discussions with.

JM
(In fact, the only people that I have experience engaging in such discussions with that approach his level of ignorance are Christians who take the "I am not going to study, I am just going to believe and follow my pastor". As I said, I am suspicious that in real life most atheists who have not engaged in a study of these subjects is not interested in a serious discussion of them.)

[Giancarlo]

I am an academic. I rightfully ignore all sorts of stupid stuff people say about physics and mathematics (my fields).

I am not a trained theologian, but I have studied a lot of theology (more than most BA students) and philosophy including atheist and religious foundations (and other religions) and despite my 'amateur' status I can still recognise not only that Kentonio is not a trained theologian or philosopher, but that he is more ignorant of such discussions than the majority of 'amateur' and 'professional' people I engage in such discussions with.

JM
(In fact, the only people that I have experience engaging in such discussions with that approach his level of ignorance are Christians who take the "I am not going to study, I am just going to believe and follow my pastor". As I said, I am suspicious that in real life most atheists who have not engaged in a study of these subjects is not interested in a serious discussion of them.)

An academic? Based on what I have seen you post, that couldn't be further from the truth. An academic doesn't go into an argument with deeply preconceived notions and ideas.

You are a complete amateur when it comes to debating. You make personal claims about others you do not know. I don't always see eye to eye with Kentonio, but what do you know about his education or background?

And you haven't really understood others you supposedly had these deep conversations with. You want to know why? You went in the discussion with sunglasses on. You weren't ever going to consider their ideas.

[Ben Kenobi]

But, as Ming said ... why cut something that takes just 3% of the budget, if there are 97% of other expoenses in the budget

Because people will choose eating over school.

[Giancarlo]

Because people will choose eating over school.

Oh wow.

We call this fear mongering.

Have any more stupid comments you want to make, Ben?

[Giancarlo]

Ben would choose war planes over eating. Like in Russia!

[Ben Kenobi]

How was it not suicide? He supposedly knew exactly what the outcome of his actions would be, but chose to do it anyway despite there not actually being any real point. He could have used his godly stealth powers to just leave for instance, but instead deliberately chose a path of death to leave a message to future generations. When people make the police shoot them, they call it suicide by cop. This was nothing more than suicide by Roman.

Only if you acknowledge him as the Son of God.

Yes my words. You tried to say that America being dominated by Christians was the reason it was the richest most powerful country on the planet. Except that doesn't seem to apply to many other christian dominated countries, showing that once again you're cherry picking.

Nigeria wouldn't come down on the lists of many as a "Christian dominated country".

The East Germans had an amazing athletics record too, what's your point?

You're saying I'm an expert in chemistry? That's quite a compliment. Thank you.

Bull****, the state has EVERY say in what you're teaching as long as you're accepting public money.

We don't accept public money. We are fully private, financed by the Church and by parents.

They should have every say even if you're not, because children are protected by the state, and should not be some pawns who can have their futures ruined because of the fantasies of disturbed adults.

But their futures aren't being ruined. They'll go on to graduate and go to college. That is my point. Our educational program is doing great with these kids.

Of course you do, because you're a vile bigot who thinks his own little fairy tales are so important they give you the right to force children onto the same path.

LOL, people pay for the privilege to have me teach them!

You said above that you had a secular education, yet as we know you're now a religious fundamentalist. Why exactly do you think its ok that you got that opportunity to choose, yet you're desperate to remove that choice from todays children?

Perhaps because I've tasted the fountain of a secular education and found it rather tepid?

Parents shouldn't get to choose how their children are educated.

Uh. Yeah they should.

Children are not property, or clones of their parents, they are tomorrows adults and citizens, and if you believe in the most basic ideals of America that all men are created equal, then you should also believe that all people have the right to the same opportunities and choices. Otherwise you're just a fascist.

They are not property, but parents have the obligation to raise and educate their children. Not the state. It's fascist to suggest that the state have total control over education, which is why the Nazis banned homeschooling...

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben would choose war planes over eating. Like in Russia!

Without Americans protecting us, I'd not *be* eating.

[Giancarlo]

Without Americans protecting us, I'd not *be* eating.

Who said anything about no one protecting anyone? You just want unnecessary multi trillion dollar war planes with huge overlay costs over food.