Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Ming]

You evaluate the nature of something by what is normal.

Infertility is an abnormal functioning - it is a sign that something is not right. You could not evaluate the true nature of the union of a man and a woman through an infertile couple.

Just BS... What about older couples... infertility for them is NORMAL.
And what about couples who don't want to have children? Nothing wrong with them, but they aren't going to have children either.
So your whole argument is meaningless.

Not true, I have a problem with incestuous couplings, etc.

I hope that isn't some lame attempt to compare gay sex to incest...

Actually there are substantive differences.

Nope.

I'm not sure how what the majority of people want is relevant when it comes to morality.

Why is it that "your" morality seems to be the only one that matters. Most people think your morality is full of crap.

Why does the state pay for education? The state has an interest in children and in regularizing marriage. From these presuppositions, the conclusion can be drawn that the state has an interest in recognizing marriage between one man and one woman.

More BS... Just another lame attempt to justify your illegal position that gays shouldn't be allowed to get married.
Since it's legal, one could come to the conclusion that the state supports gay marriages.

[Giancarlo]

Ming, considering the Catholic church was complicit in the Argentine dirty war (and Francis was possibly too)... I don't think we should pay much attention to what they consider sin.

[Ben Kenobi]

What about older couples... infertility for them is NORMAL.

What about them? Again, you evaluate the union by it's normal function. You're stating that they are infertile, ie, that they lack something that normally would be there.

And what about couples who don't want to have children? Nothing wrong with them, but they aren't going to have children either.

Now, this is an interesting argument. Are you arguing that contracepted sex is the proper way to evaluate the union of a man and a woman? Why? The point of contraception is to avoid the natural results from sex.

Why is it that "your" morality seems to be the only one that matters. Most people think your morality is full of crap.

It's not my morality. And again, why is it relevant? Either something is true or not, what people state they believe doesn't change whether something is right or wrong. This right there is relativism.

Since it's legal, one could come to the conclusion that the state supports gay marriages.

That is why there are two prepositions. One - that the state has the authority to regularize marriage, and two, that the state has an interest in children. If both are true, then it stands to reason that the state would have a desire to preserve traditional marriage.

[Giancarlo]

Here he goes again. Same sex marriage is legal and just as valid as heterosexual marriage. And enough of this traditional crap. Prearranged marriages were traditional. So was slavery. And polygamy.

Ben is lying once again.

Being gay is entirely normal to me. And the same is the love I have for my boyfriend who I will marry in the future.

Lol... He is now shocked about the hormones thing. **** gender norms.

[Ben Kenobi]

And enough of this traditional crap. Prearranged marriages were traditional. So was slavery. And polygamy.

You're arguing that Christianity is a revolutionary religion that threw down the shackles of the past and liberated men and women? Interesting perspective, Giancarlo.

[Giancarlo]

You're arguing that Christianity is a revolutionary religion that threw down the shackles of the past and liberated men and women? Interesting perspective, Giancarlo.

http://www.evilbible.com/

The bible isn't exactly revolutionary. It condones rape, slavery and murder. It also says selling your daughter into slavery is acceptable.

And no that isn't what I said. You can't ****ing read once again. Learn HOW TO ****ING READ.

Christianity created shackles.

[Giancarlo]

I saw this on the internet...



Get the message, ben?

[Berzerker]

You evaluate the nature of something by what is normal.

What if you're evaluating something that is not normal?

Infertility is an abnormal functioning - it is a sign that something is not right. You could not evaluate the true nature of the union of a man and a woman through an infertile couple.

Infertility is built into the system, that is the natural order...

I have a problem with incestuous couplings

Abraham married his half-sister and she was infertile

I'm not sure how what the majority of people want is relevant when it comes to morality.

You claimed human society's laws show we're morally superior to nature, but now the majority is irrelevant? What if everyone agreed something was immoral?

Why does the state pay for education? The state has an interest in children and in regularizing marriage. From these presuppositions, the conclusion can be drawn that the state has an interest in recognizing marriage between one man and one woman.

I dont see education, children or marriage in the Constitution

[Ben Kenobi]

The bible isn't exactly revolutionary. It condones rape, slavery and murder. It also says selling your daughter into slavery is acceptable.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:


“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

[Ming]

What about them? Again, you evaluate the union by it's normal function. You're stating that they are infertile, ie, that they lack something that normally would be there.

No... it is not something normally that would be there at that age. It's normal for old people.

Now, this is an interesting argument. Are you arguing that contracepted sex is the proper way to evaluate the union of a man and a woman? Why? The point of contraception is to avoid the natural results from sex.

No... I'm not arguing anything like you suggest. Just you again making up crap. I'm just saying based on your crappy logic, they shouldn't be allowed to be married, but you don't seem to have a problem with them getting married.

It's not my morality. And again, why is it relevant? Either something is true or not, what people state they believe doesn't change whether something is right or wrong. This right there is relativism.

But you are claiming your morality is the right one in this situation. Most people think your morality is wrong.

That is why there are two prepositions. One - that the state has the authority to regularize marriage, and two, that the state has an interest in children. If both are true, then it stands to reason that the state would have a desire to preserve traditional marriage.

FACT... THE STATE HAS LEGALIZED gay marriages. So it stands to reason that the State doesn't give a crap about your version of traditional marriage.

[Giancarlo]

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:


“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Read the site I posted. The bible condones slavery, rape and murder.

[Jon Miller]

The Bible describes cultures that condone things that can include slavery, rape and murder. Much of what the Bible describes it doesn't condone.

JM
(Although I note that slavery as it is usually used in a Western context denotes a genocidal abomination that was invented by Western civilisation approximately 400 years ago.)

[Proteus_MST]

The Bible describes cultures that condone things that can include slavery, rape and murder. Much of what the Bible describes it doesn't condone.

JM
(Although I note that slavery as it is usually used in a Western context denotes a genocidal abomination that was invented by Western civilisation approximately 400 years ago.)

The bible says that god himself ordered to kill all AMalekites, including women and children and even their cattle.
IIRC there was even a passage where the israelites were punished by god, when one of their generals didn't carry out an order for genocide, but instead "just"had his men take the virgin women of the conquered town as sex slaves

[Giancarlo]

The Bible describes cultures that condone things that can include slavery, rape and murder. Much of what the Bible describes it doesn't condone.

JM
(Although I note that slavery as it is usually used in a Western context denotes a genocidal abomination that was invented by Western civilisation approximately 400 years ago.)

Please read the site I provided. It actually condoned these acts.

https://www.evilbible.com

These were not descriptions of other societies. The bible is a genocidal text.

[Jon Miller]

This thread has really wandered from it's beginning (which is correct, Catholics, and Christianity, should ask forgiveness from homosexuals).

Most of the Bible contains human's relationship with God told from the human's perspective. They often do not know what God desired, but rather interpreted events around them based on some people who had a relationship with God and some of His direct interactions (the 10 commandments and the words of Christ). Most of the Bible contains nuanced views, for example:
David was a man of God, it even says Acts 13:22 “After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.‘”
But God also disapproved of David's actions, see David's adultery and the ordered murder of Uriah the Hittite (Censureship from Nathan the Prophet and more), see the numbering of Israel (interpreted to result in a plague), see raising children (Absalom and other children of David, even Solomon), see the great amount of killing/etc (he wasn't allowed to build the Temple). These are just obvious points. There are more if you read the stories closely (David's unhappiness with his first wife).

So why was the perspective both at ~900 BC (David's time) and ~70 AD that God felt 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'? It isn't because the Bible or God condones everything that David did. It quite obviously did not do so. Rather it condones the journey that David took through life.

David recognised sins in his life and repented of them (not all, but some, but most especially the ones that he was convicted of and he was open to being convicted). David loved God. David trusted and accepted God's forgiveness for his sins. David trusted and depended on God, even when things were hard or when he sinned.

Those are the things that the Bible condones. And they can be learned from reading and thinking about the life of David (in conjunction with people's response to him and so on) and not by just saying "David was a man of God, God and the bible must condone everything that David did."

JM
(As a political aside, this is why Trump is one of the most non-Christian nominees to ever run for president.)