Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Ben Kenobi]

And that's not what the pope said to do, so what's the point and what difference would my answer make?

I think you know very well that it's not loving behavior and so I rest my case. I find your hesitance to defend Jewish people sad, but it demonstrates the ultimate weakness of your ideals.

[rah]

I think you know very well that it's not loving behavior and so I rest my case. I find your hesitance to defend Jewish people sad, but it demonstrates the ultimate weakness of your ideals.

Again you totally ignored that I said if the pope told me to bake the cake, I would.
So stop talking about ideals since you seem to lack any.

[Ben Kenobi]

The fact that there other bakers changes nothing. You know, in the real world, it's called discrimination.

The fact that there are bakers willing to cater them actually changes the harms, quite substantially.

And by the way, the large fine you keep complaining about wasn't due to the actual fact of not baking the cake...

Interesting. Hasn't your argument been that the 125k fine been levied because of discrimination? and that you defended levying such a fine?

I agree that posting their information is wrong, but, on the topic of harassment, death threats against Melissa were also wrong. I would call it a wash - because I certainly can't see the courts fining those who harassed Melissa with death threats 135k, despite the fact that their business got closed down. That, actually represents a real, actionable loss, not the loss of a couple hours of time that it would take to get a new caterer. Max damages I could see is maybe a hundred bucks or so.

[Ben Kenobi]

Again you totally ignored that I said if the pope told me to bake the cake, I would.
So stop talking about ideals since you seem to lack any.

Funny you refuse to answer the actual question. "Is it loving behavior for you to go to the Jewish baker and demand a cake with a swatstika?" That you are paralyzed from actually standing up for a Jew against anti-Semitic behavior indicates that there is a fundamental flaw in your ideals, rah.

[Giancarlo]

It's a simple question, Giancarlo. I'm amused you cannot answer it. Because in your heart you know I'm right about it. You cannot argue that Christians should be forced to bake cakes and cater a homosexual wedding while at the same time argue that a Jewish man could deny baking an anti-Semitic cake.

This is why freedom of association is so important. What you want is to have your cake and eat it too - the ability to shut down speech, and religions you don't like while at the same time preserving privileges that you believe you are entitled to.

Laws, (and rights), do not work that way. Eroding the right of a businessman to run his business isn't going to help you in the long run. Soon, you will be dealing with people that don't give a tinker's damn about the law and the funny thing will be when you wake up and realize that you have no power here.

They need to follow the law or be sanctioned. And yes they can be forced to follow the law or face legal repercussions.

You don't have a case and you don't know anything about the Constitution, or freedom of association. Your stupid argument was used to justify segregation.

So in my heart, I know you are disgustingly wrong. Your third paragraph is written like a true right wing idiot. For one, you have it all wrong. I could replace same sex marriage in that paragraph with the word "segregation". Same sh*t argument, different day.

You have zero understanding of how the law works, nor do you have any respect for the judicial branch of government.

[rah]

No I actually didn't answer your question because it has nothing to do with the pope telling you to bake the cake.

[Ben Kenobi]

No I actually didn't answer your question because it has nothing to do with the pope telling you to bake the cake.

Wasn't it you who stated that silence in the face of evil spoke volumes? And here you are, doing just that.

[Giancarlo]

And what privileges? You are a total ass. This isn't about privileges, you selfish stupid man. This is about equality. Your argument is an exact copy of what segregationists used.

[Dauphin]

From what I've read, the couple had paid for a wedding cake for one of their mothers at the store in question a few years earlier. They were repeat customers.

[rah]

Trying to divert attention again I see.

You question had no relevance and I refuse to let you use any answer to divert attention away from the subject I was discussing.
You act like we've never seen you use this tactic before.


You are the only evil that I'm speaking against today. AS ALWAYS.

[Dauphin]

The fact that there other bakers changes nothing. You know, in the real world, it's called discrimination.

And by the way, the large fine you keep complaining about wasn't due to the actual fact of not baking the cake...

One of the bakers also quoted Leviticus at them at the cake tasting after finding out that it was for a gay wedding - something about being gay is an abomination.

[Dauphin]

Quite an interesting read:

http://media.oregonlive.com/business_impact/other/Sweetcakes%20signed%20PO.pdf

[rah]

For posting the information, they got everything they deserved.

[Ben Kenobi]

They need to follow the law or be sanctioned. And yes they can be forced to follow the law or face legal repercussions.

Ok. What about the person demanding a cake with a swatstika from a Jewish baker? Is that loving behavior?

You don't have a case and you don't know anything about the Constitution, or freedom of association. Your stupid argument was used to justify segregation.

There is a fundamental conflict between 'freedom of association' and between laws that restrict and regulate whom a business can do business with. Right now we have the hodgepodge where I, as a tutor am free to accept whatever clients I want, for whatever reasons, and a business like a baker cannot.

The market solution is simple - and Dr. King hit on this with the bus boycott. When black people were no longer riding the bus, the bus company had no choice but to change their policies. Why? Because they had lost so much business that they would have gone broke without it.

This is why Jim Crow had the regulatory defense in the southern states. Nowadays, all it would take is word of mouth to spread out that a business was operating on this fashion, and they would likely close because people would refuse to go there. I have no issue with that, and I believe that the market can and will self-regulate and that businesses that discriminate in this fashion will close.

The benefit of this policy, is that it actually protects diversity. If the Chinese restaurant wants to have Chinese people serving, they can have that - as that is their brand and they wish to consolidate their image. Whereas your policy would conclude that was 'discrimination'. The same with Catholic and Christian businesses. They should be able to hire Catholics only to run their business if that is their desire, and be successful by catering to Catholics in general. We have certain demands that are not well met by other stores, and so, a Catholic business is successful by allowing us to do one stop shopping.

I have zero qualms with 'gay' businesses that do the same thing. I think it's important that everyone has a space that they feel they are comfortable. What that doesn't mean is going out of your way to destroy those places for other people.

[Ben Kenobi]

From what I've read, the couple had paid for a wedding cake for one of their mothers at the store in question a few years earlier. They were repeat customers.

If that's true then there's no case for discrimination whatsoever.